Blasphemy & Art

[Mr. Spencer]

Sure I can roll with that, bring some quarter pounders and I'll provide the strong spirits, vodka, scotch, tequila, name your poison.

[Darkmoon]

...can we have real food and real drinks? I can't stand the taste of pork, for the most part, and beer tastes like distilled evil. Burgers and tequila good for you?

[Mr. Spencer]

You've got yourself a deal. You bring the pork chops and I'll bring the beer, we'll have a drink.

[Darkmoon]

I don't think it is Spencer - but look on the bright side, I'll be there too if I'm wrong. We shall have to have a BBQ over hell's eternal flames.

[Mr. Spencer]

I reckon there's a very special place reserved for me in hell when I die.

If it turns out to be real that is.

[Scream]

Yep, I would definitely check it out, it is the most epic game I've ever played (usual playtime 60-85 hours). Many different influences, religion, sci-fi, philosophy (both Freudian and Nietzschean concepts are present). There's just so many levels to it.. Gameplay is decent too with a lot of depth.

Silent Hill is equally awesome - I agree the first 3 games are perfection in terms of design and atmosphere. I'm probably most fond of SH3, great soundtrack as I enjoy listening to Claudia's rambling..

"Remember me, and your true self as well. Also that which you must become. The one who will lead us to Paradise with blood-stained hands..."

"The world is teeming with unnecessary people. It's God's decision that I fight. As a knight of honor, as protector of the seal, I sacrifice myself to the blood of criminals."

[GuardhouseMusic]

I guess both Xenogears and Silent Hill are blasphemous pieces of art (coincidentally they're two of my favourite games). They question the true nature of god.. I really like Xenogear's story..

A man-made god (intended to be weapon) powered by a real god (wave existence) from another dimension, shipped away because it was too powerful, subsequently killing the humans, crash landing on an alien planet and creating the first generation of humans, capable of reincarnation - an endless cycle, who would assist/defend the god.

Add nearly every Shin Megami Tensei/Persona game to that list, where the world's composed of every last mythological and religious figure, some more powerful than the others, and they're all designated as "demons."

Shit, the second one has multiple endings, Spoiler:

show spoiler

and a couple of which have you defy the Judeo-Christian god (designated YHVH) to the point of killing him.

YHVH, but mostly his followers (angels such as Gabriel, Michael, etc) are portrayed in a thoroughly negative light, with acts such as "brain in a vat" mind control machines on humans to create an ideal nation.

As for Silent Hill (never played Xenogears, but damn I want to), they're easily my favorite canon of games. Not necessarily for any content which would be considered "blasphemous," but just for their immensely fleshed out characters, imagery, and general design. Game writers/designers should use the first 3 as models for storytelling (I know the rest of them are grey areas but damn if SH4 isn't a thorough character examination).

[PracticalAl]

I'd disagree with this. If no other reason that certain things Jesus does and claims go directly against what Moses was told, that the Torah (or Old Testament, if you prefer) was to be kept and would not be changed. Therefore, you have to use your personal interpretation for which version to abide by.

Deuteronomy 4.2
Deuteronomy 13.1

Jesus did no such thing. Jesus Christ is the Lord and has the right to add to the Word, as it was not finished at the time. The command only applies to us, mankind. So it is not a matter of choosing one or the other. The Old Testament and New Testament are both the living Word of God.

It was this point of view that made me stop being a Christian years and years ago. If God was willing to send infants, children and innocents to Hell because they hadn't embraced Jesus

Children, infants and the mentally handicapped are all fall under the category of "the age of accountability". They are automatically saved, because they have not reached an age where they can understand the gospel. There are many verses to back this up.

When David's infant son died for example:
2 Samuel 12:23 But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”

or even those who never heard of him

There is not one person on earth who has not heard the gospel at least once in their life. The Bible says evidence of his existence is found in nature itself. So, it's not a valid excuse or statement.

would accept folks like the Nazi's (whether they lived up to the ideals of Christianity is not in question - they believed in Jesus and accepted him as their saviour) while the people they raped, tortured, maimed and killed went down then I want no part in it. I'd rather burn than worship a Lord that callous.

Ah, yes. It is hard to understand. But it is actually the glory of God's perfect grace that allows even the "worse" people in man's view to be saved. Simply believing in Jesus to be saved is God's grace at work. What manner of person should be "accepted" in heaven on man's terms? How "good" should they be? This is where the good works and Catholic teachings come in that distort the Bible's teachings.

We are all sinners to God. Even the smallest sin makes un imperfect and unfit to go to heaven to live with a perfect God. That is why Jesus Christ died on the cross, being a perfect substitute for us. When he died ALL sins were forgiven, past , present and future. So regardless of how "bad" or "good" one is, they can be saved if they believe. That is God's ultimate gift to man.

Think of Hell this way. When people choose to disbelieve they are ultimately saying, "I don't want to be with God". So Hell is a place where God does not exist. Even Hell is God's grace in action because he is granting their wish.

And that all or nothing teaching has nothing to do with the Torah on which it is suppose to be based.

It fits perfectly with the Old Testament, as the both the Old and New were inspired directly by God.

It's why I'll never accept the Christian Testament.

Well, I sincerely hope one day you do!

EDIT: And I might I add that if you were once a Christian, as in believed in Christ as your savior, you are saved and always will be saved. Even if you reject Jesus now.

[Scream]

I guess both Xenogears and Silent Hill are blasphemous pieces of art (coincidentally they're two of my favourite games). They question the true nature of god.. I really like Xenogear's story..

A man-made god (intended to be weapon) powered by a real god (wave existence) from another dimension, shipped away because it was too powerful, subsequently killing the humans, crash landing on an alien planet and creating the first generation of humans, capable of reincarnation - an endless cycle, who would assist/defend the god.

Krelian: Before the beginning of the universe, in the undulating waves of the higher dimension, all things were one. It was the waves spilling out from there that created this four-dimensional universe of ours. 'Humankind' and the 'Souls of Humankind' that were born from there, are merely leftovers of those spilled waves.

So I came to the conclusion that everything must be reverted back to where it all began. To go back to when all was one... waves, and nothing else... It is not my -Human's- ego... It is the will of the 'Waves'... the will of -god-...

If they made a LOTR-style trilogy for Xenogears, it would be the best thing evar!

[TheSelfishGene]

I don't care much for the music of Lady Gaga, or the teachings of Jesus Christ, but I think that nothing should be above critique, parody or criticism.

That's the beauty of countries that protect freedom of speech - not everyone is going to agree by the very nature of the exercise. If you're offended, just don't watch/listen/attend what ever it is thats upsetting you.

[Darkmoon]

I certainly see what you are saying. But just because people choose to interpret something the way they want, doesn't mean it's open for personal interpretation. As the Bible verses I posted above demonstrate, the Bible is not open to personal interpretation. However, that does not stop people from doing otherwise. Hence all the confusion and false teachings, etc.

I'd disagree with this. If no other reason that certain things Jesus does and claims go directly against what Moses was told, that the Torah (or Old Testament, if you prefer) was to be kept and would not be changed. Therefore, you have to use your personal interpretation for which version to abide by.

2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Deuteronomy 4.2

1 All this word which I command you, that shall ye observe to do; thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Deuteronomy 13.1

Exactly, this is a demonstration of people choosing their own personal interpretation rather than what the Bible clearly says. The Bible is firm that NO actions bring salvation other than belief in Jesus as your savior. Period. People choose to interpret this otherwise, or use "alternate" translations, and most of the time, as a failable human, feel the need to "earn" salvation. So therein lies the misconception.

It was this point of view that made me stop being a Christian years and years ago. If God was willing to send infants, children and innocents to Hell because they hadn't embraced Jesus or even those who never heard of him, but would accept folks like the Nazi's (whether they lived up to the ideals of Christianity is not in question - they believed in Jesus and accepted him as their saviour) while the people they raped, tortured, maimed and killed went down then I want no part in it. I'd rather burn than worship a Lord that callous.

Now, I have a somewhat different view on things, but that hasn't changed. It's why I'll never accept the Christian Testament.

[PracticalAl]

Art and religion are both open for interpretation. Sorry to disagree with you, PracticalAl, but I find that to be true. Just look at Christianity. There are hundreds or more different groups that worship in different ways, yet they each fall under the same overall faith. You may disagree with that because of your personal views on religion, but then again someone else may disagree because of what they see in their faith. Some believe faith alone in Christ is enough, some believe its actions. Some go so far to believe faith AND actions will lead a person to salvation. Its when people think that only their faith is correct and all others are wrong that problems arise.

I certainly see what you are saying. But just because people choose to interpret something the way they want, doesn't mean it's open for personal interpretation. As the Bible verses I posted above demonstrate, the Bible is not open to personal interpretation. However, that does not stop people from doing otherwise. Hence all the confusion and false teachings, etc.

Meaning and "interpretation" in the Bible's case lies solely with it's author, God, not the readers. Many Christians and non-Christians alike are sadly lost on this concept.

Some believe faith alone in Christ is enough, some believe its actions. Some go so far to believe faith AND actions will lead a person to salvation. Its when people think that only their faith is correct and all others are wrong that problems arise.

Exactly, this is a demonstration of people choosing their own personal interpretation rather than what the Bible clearly says. The Bible is firm that NO actions bring salvation other than belief in Jesus as your savior. Period. People choose to interpret this otherwise, or use "alternate" translations, and most of the time, as a failable human, feel the need to "earn" salvation. So therein lies the misconception.

Now art....same thing. Someone may look at a simple colored speck on a wide canvas and say "Well that's not art. Anyone with a drop of paint could do that!" Yet others can view the piece, stare at it for a while, and describe how it speaks to them, how they understand the artist's emotion/inspiration/etc. What people think to be art varies as well. A rap artist believes his/her music is their canvas....others say the lyrics/videos are degrading and not worth the money. Not one person will share the exact views with someone 100% of the time, no matter what. You can share a faith with someone, believe the exact same way they do, but there will be little things that differ.

Yup, yup, yup. Totally agree with you there!

[Bertha]

Art and religion are both open for interpretation. Sorry to disagree with you, PracticalAl, but I find that to be true. Just look at Christianity. There are hundreds or more different groups that worship in different ways, yet they each fall under the same overall faith. You may disagree with that because of your personal views on religion, but then again someone else may disagree because of what they see in their faith. Some believe faith alone in Christ is enough, some believe its actions. Some go so far to believe faith AND actions will lead a person to salvation. Its when people think that only their faith is correct and all others are wrong that problems arise.

Now art....same thing. Someone may look at a simple colored speck on a wide canvas and say "Well that's not art. Anyone with a drop of paint could do that!" Yet others can view the piece, stare at it for a while, and describe how it speaks to them, how they understand the artist's emotion/inspiration/etc. What people think to be art varies as well. A rap artist believes his/her music is their canvas....others say the lyrics/videos are degrading and not worth the money. Not one person will share the exact views with someone 100% of the time, no matter what. You can share a faith with someone, believe the exact same way they do, but there will be little things that differ.

As far as Lady Gaga goes...I have yet to hear the song or see the video to Judas. However, I truly doubt its that bad. Hell...from the reviews of it, most people almost seem let down by what she did, some saying they were expecting a lot more but she delievered something fairly tame and flat.

[PracticalAl]

EDIT: Just realized I double-posted! I'm very sorry! These conversations get me excited. ^^;..

This is an excellent disussion.Jesus Christ of Nazareth was the greatest artist of all time.

Much more than that, my friend! ;)

The problem with some, is that people get a little too hardcore when it comes to religion (Christianity, specifically). As history tells (and repeats), people have killed in the name of our Lord, God and the Christian faith, itself.

Far less than Islam and communism, though! Not that by comparison it makes the deeds done by false Christians any less worse. And that is what they are; false Christians. "Christians" who kill in the name of their Lord, judge, or commit hate speech are not following the Bible.

People take scripture out of context and try to apply it to their daily lives, and in extreme cases, often and unknowingly preach hate. For example, absolutely nowhere in the Christian bible does it ever say "God hates fags" - that was made up by some cocoa puff.

You are right, no where does it say "God hates homosexuals". However, he hates the sin of homosexuality, as he does all sins. But not the sinner.

I am a God-fearing Christian, and in no way am I saying that all Christians are mislead by false preachings

But most are sadly!

Religion is a mask for our sins. If some people would ever dare to remove that mask, they may be afraid of the ugliness they'd find, which is why most would rather prefer to stay behind that mask, point fingers and cast stones.

Very true words. Religion is as evil as you can get. Even the Bible says so! I hate to see people lump in Christianity with "religion" and even more-so, the false Christians who make it seem that way..

If people took the time and Love that God gave us all to understand, there wouldn't be any of this nonsense; we'd all be living in perfect harmony, with no war, hunger, etc. Instead, well, we all know what kind of state the world is in - no need to type anymore.

We'll never see that on earth, but someday soon in Heaven!

Is my post blasphemous? Possibly so, but to anyone who wants to tell me this, that or another, I say this - it's my life, given to me by God, and when the time comes, we'll deal with it together. I don't need/want/believe otherwise. I'd also like to point out that these are just my beliefs and opinions, and are subject to change as I grow more mature and wise with age.

You have very astute points! Thank you for sharing your thoughts, and nice to know another Christian on the site!

[PracticalAl]

Interesting dialogue, Vogue! I have heard the song Judas, but I was unaware of the surrounding controversy. I believe I mentioned your signature in our private messages. (Sorry if I scared you away. I felt bad after..)

This isn't a discussion about Lady Gaga, but instead about the fact that she used religious imagery in her video. Even before its release, the Catholic League was up in arms about the song, stating she was bashing religion. Which is not true at all, in my opinion.

Well, just from the lyrics themselves it is clear she makes references to a "Biblical" Judas; such as the 'washing of feet with hair'; and references to the Bible itself. And because Judas is a notorious figure, there will of course be controversy. You have to think of it from a Christian's perspective. Judas was the one who betrayed Jesus; Jesus who is our Lord and savior. That may be offensive to some Christians, and I can see why. I myself as a Christian, am not offended. Just more or less turned off. I think Lady Gaga does alot of things solely for "controversy".. And this seems no different. Why would she choose "Judas" for the song title, otherwise?

Now, as an artist. I think she should be free to do whatever she wants artistically! Whether it is offensive or not! That's what freedom of speech is all about! People will ALWAYS be offended by something. It's the politically correct mentality that is destroying this country, not the "offensive" material.

So, I don't agree with what she's doing with her art, but I will defend to the death her right to do it! That is how I feel both as Christian, artist and American, ha-ha.

My opinion is that everything should be up to interpretation, even biblical and religious stories and imagery. The bible has some very powerful messages and themes within it. I've seen some beautiful artistic interpretations of stories from the bible, that people just tear down because I believe they refuse to look under the surface.

This is where I disagree. The Bible is very clear that it is NOT up for personal interpretation.

Proverbs 30:6 "Do not add to His words Or He will reprove you, and you will be proved a liar."

2Peter 1:20-21 - "But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God."

2Timothy 3:16 - "All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness"