...Jesus-ween? Seriously!?

[Ununoctium]

First off, no one can be "converted" by anyone else. It's a choice you must make between you and God personally. Secondly, I've been to several Christian-run charity events and not once was anyone "forced" to "convert" nor even preached to. And even when church material is present at charity events or shelters, they're pamphlets or books that are taken by the volition of the people. Never forced.

Seems you have alot of misconceptions about Christianity and/or are making judgements based on select groups of Christians. I suggest finding a non-denominational website or church with a pastor versed in the original languages present in the Bible, if you wish to correct such misconceptions.

I recommend either:

http://www.barahministries.com/

http://johnfarley.org/

And of course, you can always talk to me!

I'll bookmark those websites and check them out later. And of course they aren't forced into becoming Christians. But for instance a lot of nuns and clergy went to third-world countries in the past (and many still do), and they take in the starving kids, orphaned babies, and others. And while that is a noble thing for them to do, they also "educate" them by making them read the Bible in their classes and singing religious songs. It's not secular at all, it's a religious education that is biased towards a certain religion.

[PracticalAl]

I'll bookmark those websites and check them out later. And of course they aren't forced into becoming Christians. But for instance a lot of nuns and clergy went to third-world countries in the past (and many still do), and they take in the starving kids, orphaned babies, and others. And while that is a noble thing for them to do, they also "educate" them by making them read the Bible in their classes and singing religious songs. It's not secular at all, it's a religious education that is biased towards a certain religion.

True, true. But if a charity is offering services at the expense of Bible education, no one is forcing these people to accept the services. As for orphaned children, nothing is stopping them from coming to their own conclusions, when they reach the age where they would be mentally capable of doing so. To say it is biased is unfair. Of course a Christian run charity will promote Christianity, as would a Catholic or Mormon charity promote their respective beliefs, as well Atheist organizations promoting their beliefs, etc. Everyone is "biased" to an extent, to say the least, and we all have our predispositions, it's just a matter of which you choose.

[Ununoctium]

True, true. But if a charity is offering services at the expense of Bible education, no one is forcing these people to accept the services. As for orphaned children, nothing is stopping them from coming to their own conclusions, when they reach the age where they would be mentally capable of doing so. To say it is biased is unfair. Of course a Christian run charity will promote Christianity, as would a Catholic or Mormon charity promote their respective beliefs, as well Atheist organizations promoting their beliefs, etc. Everyone is "biased" to an extent, to say the least, and we all have our predispositions, it's just a matter of which you choose.

Fair enough, you can't blame them for wanting to promote their own interests in return for shelter/food.

[Darkmoon]

Creationist does = naive / gullible though, yes?

Depends. How gullible do you think I am?

Unlike creationism though, atheism and agnosticism don't have any belief system or anything else. It's just normal human being common sense, it's how everyone is unless they have been brainwashed from outside influences at a young age (i.e. parents who were also brainwashed at a young age).

Then why do so many people, throughout history, believe in something greater? Spirits, Gods, God, Ancestors...most people throughout history have believed in both some form of greater power and a afterlife.

I think we're hard wired to want to think there's something greater than us, that there's something after us, because otherwise life is miserable and depressing. Whether it's correct? I can't answer that, at least not 'till I'm too dead to tell you lot.

Children aren't born to be like "OMG IS THERE A GOD I MUST KNOW RIGHT NOW!" or anything like that. And just because we have freedom and don't have state-sponsored religion in schools like Saudi Arabia, doesn't "breed atheism and agnosticism" it's called secularism. Something that most creationists, especially Christians and Muslims fail to understand. They don't seem to understand the whole US Constitution, especially the whole separation of church and state thing. Also, how can secular schools brainwash kids into "believing in atheism"? Atheism and agnosticism is about as much of a belief as "not stamp collecting" is a hobby.

A bit off-topic, but it just amuses me to no end that Christians and Muslims claim they are "pro-life" yet their religions have killed more people than Hitler, Gaddafi, Stalin, and all the other dictators combined. And they also support the killing of abortion doctors, homosexuals, and the death penalty. So I guess they aren't so "pro-life" after all, are they?

Some are. Just like some atheists are evil, hideous people some people with faith are. One facet of your life doesn't make you evil. Plus, religious folks have had a much longer time to be assholes. Give atheism a few centuries. I'm sure someone will commit a hideous war crime in the name of logic, like killing one in three new borns to stop over population, or eradicating all the disabled folk because they're a drain on resources.

Most religious wars are actually political wars with an excuse. Even something like the Crusades have more than religion to them. The Middle East conflict between Israel and Palestine - would it be as intense if the bits Palestine demanded are some of the most productive, well irrigated parts in the region?

And let's not forget the fun that happened in China during World War 2 by the Japanese, whose faith system is extremely different to anything we have and doesn't have as much impact on secular life...the Kami wrote it so was never used as an excuse for the stuff they pulled.

Assholes are assholes. Doesn't matter what you believe.

[Ununoctium]

Depends. How gullible do you think I am?

I don't know you well enough to answer that.

Then why do so many people, throughout history, believe in something greater? Spirits, Gods, God, Ancestors...most people throughout history have believed in both some form of greater power and a afterlife.

I think we're hard wired to want to think there's something greater than us, that there's something after us, because otherwise life is miserable and depressing. Whether it's correct? I can't answer that, at least not 'till I'm too dead to tell you lot.

A lot of it was about power though, a tool to control the masses. I do think it's natural for people to try and find spirituality or enlightenment. However I do not believe Islam, Judaism, or Christianity are about spirituality or enlightenment.

Some are. Just like some atheists are evil, hideous people some people with faith are. One facet of your life doesn't make you evil. Plus, religious folks have had a much longer time to be assholes. Give atheism a few centuries. I'm sure someone will commit a hideous war crime in the name of logic, like killing one in three new borns to stop over population, or eradicating all the disabled folk because they're a drain on resources.

Most religious wars are actually political wars with an excuse. Even something like the Crusades have more than religion to them. The Middle East conflict between Israel and Palestine - would it be as intense if the bits Palestine demanded are some of the most productive, well irrigated parts in the region?

And let's not forget the fun that happened in China during World War 2 by the Japanese, whose faith system is extremely different to anything we have and doesn't have as much impact on secular life...the Kami wrote it so was never used as an excuse for the stuff they pulled.

Assholes are assholes. Doesn't matter what you believe.

Of course people of all religions and atheists commit horrible acts, no one is saying that atheists are perfect and infallible beings. They're human, just like Christians. Muslims on the other hand, well that's a discussion for another day...

[Darkmoon]

I don't know you well enough to answer that.

Let's go with, 'Not Very' then.

A lot of it was about power though, a tool to control the masses. I do think it's natural for people to try and find spirituality or enlightenment. However I do not believe Islam, Judaism, or Christianity are about spirituality or enlightenment.

Doesn't make sense, in context. The people who ruled in our early days ruled because they had bigger muscles and a bigger stick than the rest of the tribe - disagreement got a stick. That, eventually, became bigger armies.

Conflicts over religion are a relatively new thing - the Egypitans, Greeks and such certainly didn't bother. If someone else had a different God they assumed it was either a new one and added it to there Pantheon or one of there's with a different name. For example, the Egypitans often considered Seth and Marduk, a nasty Babylonian deity, to be the same in guy in some of there writings. The Romans are especially famous for the second.

And, of course, there are large chunks of the planet that simply didn't have that kind of religious focus. Asia especially, but South America, Southern parts of Africa...and they had plenty of wars, violence, dominating the weak because you had bigger muscles, strong troops, better technology.

End of the day, science and religion do the same thing - they're trying to make sense of our place in the Universe. The methods are different, but the goal is the same. In many ways, the utter belief in science many atheists hold is just as dogmatic and fanatic as any religion. Sciences holds ALL the answers, and they will be revealed in time.

Of course people of all religions and atheists commit horrible acts, no one is saying that atheists are perfect and infallible beings. They're human, just like Christians. Muslims on the other hand, well that's a discussion for another day...

Muslims are fine. There are extremists - they're pure evil. They're also running out of recruits and cash. Most Muslims are not listening to them. Hell, Bin Laden apparently spent his last few months trying to work out a way to give the man protecting him enough money to actually protect him.

Muslims have a lot of rules about warfare and fighting. During the crusades, while captured Muslim forces were often killed, the Christian forces were fed and cared for. The problem is that most of the extremists added a nasty little, and not written anywhere, caveat - to be human is to be Muslim. Most don't follow it.

[Ununoctium]

Let's go with, 'Not Very' then.



Doesn't make sense, in context. The people who ruled in our early days ruled because they had bigger muscles and a bigger stick than the rest of the tribe - disagreement got a stick. That, eventually, became bigger armies.

Conflicts over religion are a relatively new thing - the Egypitans, Greeks and such certainly didn't bother. If someone else had a different God they assumed it was either a new one and added it to there Pantheon or one of there's with a different name. For example, the Egypitans often considered Seth and Marduk, a nasty Babylonian deity, to be the same in guy in some of there writings. The Romans are especially famous for the second.

And, of course, there are large chunks of the planet that simply didn't have that kind of religious focus. Asia especially, but South America, Southern parts of Africa...and they had plenty of wars, violence, dominating the weak because you had bigger muscles, strong troops, better technology.

End of the day, science and religion do the same thing - they're trying to make sense of our place in the Universe. The methods are different, but the goal is the same. In many ways, the utter belief in science many atheists hold is just as dogmatic and fanatic as any religion. Sciences holds ALL the answers, and they will be revealed in time.



Muslims are fine. There are extremists - they're pure evil. They're also running out of recruits and cash. Most Muslims are not listening to them. Hell, Bin Laden apparently spent his last few months trying to work out a way to give the man protecting him enough money to actually protect him.

Muslims have a lot of rules about warfare and fighting. During the crusades, while captured Muslim forces were often killed, the Christian forces were fed and cared for. The problem is that most of the extremists added a nasty little, and not written anywhere, caveat - to be human is to be Muslim. Most don't follow it.

The entire Muslim world treats women, non-believers, homosexuals, and others like they aren't even human. True democracy seems to be impossible there, with the exception of Turkey, and even then only because the military intervenes every few years to prevent the government from becoming too Islamic. Their religion promotes hatred and bigotry that is possibly even worse than Christianity in the Middle Ages.

[Darkmoon]

No. No they don't. I know Pakistan has had a woman prime minister twice, and I think there are a couple of other Muslim countries that have had them. Do you think they'd get there if woman were virtual slaves?

Most Muslim communities don't treat women terribly. The burka, for example, is a cultural item of clothing - a couple of Islamic nations have outlawed wearing them. Many women choose to wear them in the same way a Jewish woman choose to cover her hair with a hat or wig. In the Qur'an it explicitly states women are equal, but have a responsibility to honour and obey a husband, just as the husband has a duty to protect and support his wife. It certainly doesn't say all women must be married or anything, and exactly how and why depends on how the Qur'an is interpreted and local customs.

And just for the record? The whole 'A woman who is raped gets stoned to death' thing? Completely against the Qur'an and Sharia law. A woman and man who cheat are supposed to get stoned - in the case of a rape in Qur'an, the woman is given a blessing...her rapist stoned to death.

Most are as fine with non-Muslims as your average Christian is with non-Christian people. They might not understand it but they aren't going to set your balls on fire as long as you respect there community and views - demanding a bacon sandwich would go down badly. Similar with homosexuals. You're as likely for a white guy to bash your head in because 'God hates Fags' as you are to run into a Muslim willing to do the same, and in about the same proportions.

You're trying to promote the worst examples of Islam as the norm - essentially, you're doing the same as if I was saying all Christians, everywhere, act like the Westboro Church, one my pet hates. The vast majority of Christians are just people, with there own set of personal and cultural biases and beliefs. The same is exactly the same for Islam.

[Ununoctium]

To be fair, there are some good things about religion...

[Ununoctium]

It's like we're a bunch of Jews arguing in 1937 about the Nazis.
"Nazism is a threat to us!"
"No it isn't, it's only the radical Nazis who are bad, the others treat us with a lot of respect"

Edit: Oops didn't mean to double post, sorry.

[Darkmoon]

No. We're really not...and you're not gonna to care about anything I say because your mind is already locked in place, it seems, therefore falling under my 'Don't argue with fanatics of any kind' disclaimer.

So, instead, let's head back to the actual topic.

[PracticalAl]

Also, in regard to our earlier "quest for the meaning of life" discussion earlier, I recommend you watch this video:

I watched it as promised, here is my response:

0:10 "Anyone who disagrees with me is a filthy, infidel swine" This is a stab at the Qur'an obviously, there is nothing like this in the Bible. I agree.

1:20 In reference to him suggesting that people like to speculate without a "single, shred of evidence" is entirely false for Christianity. There is a plethora of evidence in the Bible supporting our beliefs, it's just a matter of whether or not one is biased against it.

1:50 "Unfortunate that many people believe the first thing they're told and stick to it for the rest of their life". The same can be said for atheists and agnostics, so this argument is mute. Aside from that the Bible says: "1 Thessalonians 5:21 - But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;" meaning, don't just believe what you're told, do your research.

2:20 Referring to the "indoctrination of children with hateful absurdities" can also be said about any secular or atheistic institute. These aren't always exclusively religious either, such as the indoctrination of the theory of evolution in schools, or the indoctrination of hate towards America taught to North Korean children. As for the Bible supposedly falling into this category, show me what exactly in the Bible is a "hateful absurdity".

2:37 Again, the speaker is being contradictory by accusing religious beliefs of indoctrination, but completely negating the indoctrination of secularism/naturalism in today's society.

2:53 Suggesting a "mental health warning" on the Bible is laughable. Just look up any statistical study of the happiness of those who believe in God vs. the happiness of those who don't. Christians are some of the most happy, productive, healthy and charitable people on the planet.

3:20 "There is no kingdom to come, we are already in it". His proof?.. He claimed that and yet said nothing to prove it. I can make a whole bunch of assertive statements without anything to back them up too, it doesn't make me right. (And he has the gall to call people with belief in God "stone age" minds? Right.)

3:50 "Maybe you prefer dreams" No, quite the opposite. I prefer evidence, logic and proof, all which can be found in the Bible. On the contrary, there is no proof for God not existing. Perhaps, it is him who prefers the dream?

4:03 "Jesus strokes you like a puppy dog". I could tell from the first few sentences that he was the condescending type, and not the sort of argument maker I like to waste time with. (So far he hasn't made one compelling argument..) But you did suggest this video to me, so I'm listening to it for your sake Uno. v__v'..

4:20 "Religion is the devil's drug"?! But he doesn't believe in God?! So how could there be a devil!?! (Just kidding, just kidding.) This I actually agree with; smartest thing he's said so far. Religion is an illness; religion is evil incarnate created by Satan himself. Christianity, however, is not a religion. It is a personal relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ as defined by the Bible. The Bible warns of the evils of religion. Religion is a counterfeit of the Bible, enforced with man-made rules and additions. (I.E Catholicism)

5:04 His whole argument about "absolute certainty" is possibly the most misleading thing I've ever heard. He speaks of belief as if people hear one statement and instantly believe it without any intellectual honesty, objectivity or research. One only comes to "absolute certainty" through years of examination and study. He is also contradicting himself. Is he not "absolutely certain" that God may or may not exist, being an agnostic? Is he not "absolutely certain" that religion is evil, or that people with belief are "in the stone age"

It's like we're a bunch of Jews arguing in 1937 about the Nazis. "Nazism is a threat to us!" "No it isn't, it's only the radical Nazis who are bad, the others treat us with a lot of respect"

EXACTLY. I'd like to share this with any who are interested:

A German's View on Islam

A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism. 'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said, 'but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'

We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the specter of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.

The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honor-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.

The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful Muslim majority, the 'silent majority,' is cowed and extraneous.

Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.

The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians -- most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.

And who can forget Rwanda , which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?

History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points:

Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence.

Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend from Germany , they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.

Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late. As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts--the fanatics who threaten our way of life.

Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes this email without sending it on, is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand. So, extend yourself a bit and send this on and on and on! Let us hope that thousands, world-wide, read this and think about it, and send it on - before it's too late.

Darkmoon, I know you live in the U.K where the media is very anti-semitic and incredibly biased in favor towards Muslims, because of the high level of immigration there. I suggest you do some research outside your comfort zone. You made many false statements in regards to how Muslims operate. I suggest: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/ Especially the "woman's rights" section; for example:

Under Islamic law, rape can only be proven if the rapist confesses or if there are four male witnesses. Women who allege rape, without the benefit of the act having been witnessed by four men who subsequently develop a conscience, are actually confessing to having sex. If they or the accused happens to be married, then it is considered to be adultery.

Qur'an (2:282) - Establishes that a woman's testimony is worth only half that of a man's in court (there is no "he said/she said" gridlock in Islam).

Qur'an (24:4) - "And those who accuse free women then do not bring four witnesses (to adultery), flog them..."

Qur'an (24:13) - "Why did they not bring four witnesses of it? But as they have not brought witnesses they are liars before Allah."

Qur'an (2:223) - "Your wives are as a tilth unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will..." There is no such thing as rape in marriage, as a man is permitted unrestricted sexual access to his wives.

[Darkmoon]

I suddenly realized why this thread was bugging me so much...folks are tarring and feathering somewhere between 1.2 and 1.6 billion people for the actions of a handful, probably less than 1% of the whole. You're sitting there, assuring yourself that these people are evil or wrong because of one facet of there life and it's perfectly OK to do so. I swear, am I the only one with enough grasp on to look at this in utter, total horror? Am I the only one to see how well deciding a whole people should be labelled and deemed a threat went?

And it's not like this is even the only thread that's happened like this. I remember the London Riot thread with special misery. Why the hell am I part of a community where this seems like a good thing?

[PracticalAl]

I see the "German's View on Islam" had no impact on you. I will continue to pray that God opens your eyes, Darkmoon. And as for the peaceful "1.2 - 1.6 billion people" what are they doing exactly to stop the "1%"? (And that 1% sure can do alot of damage! Terror Attack List 2011 (Thus Far))

1. Evil triumphs when good men do nothing.

2. Don't judge the Muslims that you know by Islam and don't judge Islam by the Muslims that you know.

[Mr. Spencer]

Ah, the Jews. I just wonder how Ariel Sharon can live with himself for having soldiers and tanks shoot at children throwing rocks. Israel was a bad idea to begin with and look at how much trouble it has caused in the region.

Just stoking the fire a little.