Hitler: Mad, genius, or both?

[Mr. Spencer]

By god, the theme to Space Harrier is fantastic.

[Darkmoon]

Actually, you can. Because of the simple fact that the Church is still standing and close to two billion people see it as something valid, noble, true and righteous. The way the church sees itsself. There is absolutely no way anyone should take that organization seriously after its past, while its pretending it never happened by continuing to preach the "good message". Its an organization of lies and deception, and if God were to exist (he doesnt), there would be no church, not anymore.

Faith was a very strong method to keep the people enslaved and obedient. And people used it to justify their atrocities. In retrospect, religion can easily be compared to how Hitler enabled a lot of people to commit the worst in this world.

Yes, it can be compared to things in the past. Faith and religion still cause attrocities to happen today. Suicide bombers being one of the lovlier examples. However, to say the Catholic Church now is evil due to the deeds of the past is to say that Obama is evil because he killed a whole shitload of Native Americans. Sure, he didn't actually do it. It was the American Goverment a few hundred years back, before he was born. But now he controls the American Goverment and so is responsible for those crimes.

That's essentially what you're arguing here. That people born hundreds of years after an event, after an organization has realised it's mistakes and made sure they're corrected and won't happen again is still, now, responsible for crimes commited by different men and women years ago.

Or that I'm a killer, for that matter. I mean, a family member of mine killed someone about three hundred and fifrty years ago. If these things can be passed by something as tenuous as simply being a member of an organization can it be passed along by blood?

Yes I can blame them, as many people can tell that Hilter STILL IS evil (and he is IMO). What he did was a long time ago (60-70 years is almost an entire life), the group who was in charge was very different from the Germans today, so time and location doesn't make a difference.

The popes at the time of the inquisition supported torture as a way to obtain a confession - and death as punishment for being a heretic. That wasn't only in Spain. Germany had a greater number of deaths registred by the inquisition.

And fear. The bible itself portraits god as an entity who must be respected if you don't want to feel its wrath.

Fear is pretty much the only way many people obey. How many people obey the laws of a land because they want to and how many obey because of the fear of punishment. Religion is no different in this. When it had more influence with a goverment (and in places in Africa and the Middle East today, where it still has a massive influence) that meant you were punished severly for disobeying it. Was it right? Nope.

And yeah, Popes supported torture and execution of Heretics. Kings and Queens considered the torture and execute traitors. You guys telling me we should go Lynch Queen Elizabeth II for daring to be Queen after Mary, a woman who killed hundreds of people to secure both her reign and her religion? They're both monarch of England, after all.

An organization cannot be guilty, so not every Nazi was a Jew hating sociopathic asshole. The people within it are guilty. You can't blame an organization for the actions of the individuals within, nor can you blame everyone in an organization for the actions of other people within it. People are responsible for there own actions, not those of someone who died raving hundreds of years ago.

Darkmoon: Whether you like it or not, I'm not trolling, and I'm sorry if you think that I am.

I'll just go with CR29 for this one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

I'm just saying.

If, at any point, you defend your opinions or tried to explain them I could believe you. Yet instead of that you simply post, 'Hitler is my idol!' or 'I think things can be wrong, but not evil, and that Hitler was niether so the murder of millions was perfectly right!' and yet you won't defend that opinion in any way. And so the conclusion must be that you don't believe this crap and are posting it to get a rise out of folks.

[TheMedic]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RGRaeAx9Qs I saw this movie and it was pretty good. The ending was pretty much the DEFINITION of Irony. I do not like Hitler or what he did to the Jews. It makes my heart literally HURT to see what happened to them. NOBODY deserves that.

I personally think Hitler was an artist who became insane and I don't think it was ALL his fault that this happened. I think it was the people who actually LISTENED to his insane rants and bought it.

I don't think he is a genius in any sense, just insane.

[Beanovsky Durst]

Yes, but saying that the Catholic Church now is evil because of (or responsible of) inquisition that happened hundreds years ago is like saying that Germany now is evil because of what happened during the WWII. People are saying Hitler is evil, because it was he who committed those crimes or at least was somehow responsible for them; but people who are now in charge of the Catholic Church have nothing to do with what happened centuries ago. That's the difference.

I think Member of STARS explained that better. The catholic church is an institution that stll exists today; Hitler's reign is over, and obviously you can't consider all germans as evil, but they carry the burden of the Nazi's actions.

[ValentineKnight]

and if God were to exist (he doesnt),

Opinion there's no concreate evidence against it's existance and yes I believe in a creator(not specifically the Christan one however)

[Mr_Zombie]

Yes I can blame them, as many people can tell that Hilter STILL IS evil (and he is IMO). What he did was a long time ago (60-70 years is almost an entire life), the group who was in charge was very different from the Germans today, so time and location doesn't make a difference.

Yes, but saying that the Catholic Church now is evil because of (or responsible of) inquisition that happened hundreds years ago is like saying that Germany now is evil because of what happened during the WWII. People are saying Hitler is evil, because it was he who committed those crimes or at least was somehow responsible for them; but people who are now in charge of the Catholic Church have nothing to do with what happened centuries ago. That's the difference.

[Vector]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.

I'm just saying.

[Weskers Flag]

Darkmoon: Whether you like it or not, I'm not trolling, and I'm sorry if you think that I am.

[Beanovsky Durst]

Most people consider the Church at the time pretty evil. I mean, hell, there was a Pope at one point who had a grand daughter...with his daughter. The Church was not especially civilized before the Reformation, when they started tighting things up.

It should, however, be noted that the Iquisition we all know and love was mostly the Spanish one, and one the Popes were unable to reign in due to the power of the monarchs of Spain. The actual Papal Inquisition was not nearly as nasty or as unpleasant.

Plus, you can't really blame a organization for events and crimes commited hundreds of years ago, when a whole different group of people were in control. The Catholic Church then did some nasty crap. Even the Church now admits to that. Hitler, however, had no one to blame for his crimes but himself.

Yes I can blame them, as many people can tell that Hilter STILL IS evil (and he is IMO). What he did was a long time ago (60-70 years is almost an entire life), the group who was in charge was very different from the Germans today, so time and location doesn't make a difference.

The popes at the time of the inquisition supported torture as a way to obtain a confession - and death as punishment for being a heretic. That wasn't only in Spain. Germany had a greater number of deaths registred by the inquisition.

Faith was a very strong method to keep the people enslaved and obedient. And people used it to justify their atrocities. In retrospect, religion can easily be compared to how Hitler enabled a lot of people to commit the worst in this world.

And fear. The bible itself portraits god as an entity who must be respected if you don't want to feel its wrath.

[Member_of_STARS]

Most people consider the Church at the time pretty evil. I mean, hell, there was a Pope at one point who had a grand daughter...with his daughter. The Church was not especially civilized before the Reformation, when they started tighting things up.

It should, however, be noted that the Iquisition we all know and love was mostly the Spanish one, and one the Popes were unable to reign in due to the power of the monarchs of Spain. The actual Papal Inquisition was not nearly as nasty or as unpleasant.

Plus, you can't really blame a organization for events and crimes commited hundreds of years ago, when a whole different group of people were in control. The Catholic Church then did some nasty crap. Even the Church now admits to that. Hitler, however, had no one to blame for his crimes but himself.

Actually, you can. Because of the simple fact that the Church is still standing and close to two billion people see it as something valid, noble, true and righteous. The way the church sees itsself. There is absolutely no way anyone should take that organization seriously after its past, while its pretending it never happened by continuing to preach the "good message". Its an organization of lies and deception, and if God were to exist (he doesnt), there would be no church, not anymore.

Faith was a very strong method to keep the people enslaved and obedient. And people used it to justify their atrocities. In retrospect, religion can easily be compared to how Hitler enabled a lot of people to commit the worst in this world.

[Darkmoon]

Most people consider the Church at the time pretty evil. I mean, hell, there was a Pope at one point who had a grand daughter...with his daughter. The Church was not especially civilized before the Reformation, when they started tighting things up.

It should, however, be noted that the Iquisition we all know and love was mostly the Spanish one, and one the Popes were unable to reign in due to the power of the monarchs of Spain. The actual Papal Inquisition was not nearly as nasty or as unpleasant.

Plus, you can't really blame a organization for events and crimes commited hundreds of years ago, when a whole different group of people were in control. The Catholic Church then did some nasty crap. Even the Church now admits to that. Hitler, however, had no one to blame for his crimes but himself.

[Beanovsky Durst]

It's one thing to admire his public speaking skills, his use of the media, and novel technologies (such as microphones and PAs) to persuade large numbers of people to sympathise with his agenda.

It's another thing to admire his genocidal policies, eugenic visions, and the means by which he sought to achieve his goals, as well as the atrocities he left go unquestioned.

I think anyone who expresses an admiration of Hitler had best make it clear why they think he was such a remarkable person, at the risk of being misunderstood.

Precisely my point. I think Hitler was a genius in the terms of his propaganda techniques, like it or not, he contributed to the base of mass communication.

Yet, his actions and consequences are not short of a mad man. But I try to see Wesker's Flag point on what is evil. There's a shit load of people who are responsible for the death of thousands of human beings and are not considered evil. For example, the catholic church. Inquisition anyone?

[Darkmoon]

...you don't think the murder of six million folks, which may well have included you and your loved ones happened if it happened today, including pregnant women, newborn infants, kids, old folks, disabled folks, gypsies, Jews, Black people, communists, captured soldiers, gay people, people who didn't agree with Hitler and a few others was niether wrong nor evil.

Yet you won't explain that, now will you? You won't explain to us why you feel it was perfectly justified for him to kill them all.

Yeah. Since the point of this was debate, and you aren't actually debating in anyway, simply trying to get folks riled up I think I'm gonna label this as trolling. I'll have to double check whether I can lock the thread and/or punish you.

[Weskers Flag]

Darkmoon: I do not believe in evil. I do believe in wrong. Though I do not think what he did was either, it was a bit "unique", though.

Yes, I know I make no sense.
___
Chris: Did you honestly think that you people were going to change my opinion?
No. I understand where you people are coming from, but you must understand that we all think differently.

[Vector]

Okay, sooner or later we gotta stop feeding this troll. There's obviously no getting through to this girl.