Hitler: Mad, genius, or both?

[Corrin]

Whole lotta words ITT. Whole lotta people taking the internet waaaa-

[ValentineKnight]

religion/politics ARE serious business my friend

[Corrin]

religion/politics ARE serious business my friend

Especially when discussed with under-aged posters on a Resident Evil forum!!!

[Corrin]

It doesn't get ANY better than this!!

*puts on posting shades*

*posts a whole novel worth of words in response to a 14 year-old girl*



*takes shades off*

Heh...owned........

[Weskers Flag]

Corrin: if you do not like this thread so much, then stop posting. It's really as simple as that, no need to spam. *reads your other posts*
You know what, you really should stop posting, because all you're doing is spamming.
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missvalentine: In our point of view, it is wrong. Yes, I agree that mass genocide is wrong.
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Mr. Spencer: Not that I know of. Of course, I have never met another Satanist before who wasn't just some angsty teenager.
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[Gradon]

If you believe mass genoide is wrong, why the hell did you try to provoke attacks by saying Hitler wasn't wrong?
For Gods sake, it's uncalled for.

[Weskers Flag]

If you believe mass genoide is wrong, why the hell did you try to provoke attacks by saying Hitler wasn't wrong?
For Gods sake, it's uncalled for.

I never did say that he wasn't wrong. Now, I did, however, say that he was my idol.

[Darkmoon]

Darkmoon: I do not believe in evil. I do believe in wrong. Though I do not think what he did was either, it was a bit "unique", though.

Yes, I know I make no sense.

You just said it. Right there. Look. You believe what Hitler did was not wrong nor evil.

[Member_of_STARS]

Chruches are not divine. According to Jewish and Christian mythology man has free will. We can, indeed, choose to ignore God. Chruches are not something that God created. Look through a Bible, or in my case a Torah. There are specific things you need to do, specific ways to worship, and specific times you need to do it but there isn't, 'And yay, you shall build unto me a big stone building and lo! the priests of the lands shall touch kids.'

I think its obvious that I was not saying that the Churches are "de facto" divine. Im saying that their status to religious people (to nearly 4 billion, when it comes to muslims and christians) is. If a man is given the choice to ignore the Church, yet murder thousands of people in the name of the Lord, and claim to be his representative on Earth, and still spin this organization using the same claims today, then the Church of medieval times is no different than the Church of today. Based on a lie and deception, peoples fear and ignorance.

And if you think a religion has gotten off purely for being a religion you're sadly unaware of a little history. The Catholic Church once dominated Europe. Land that wasn't under the direct control of the Papal Throne was controlled by lords loyal to him, or the Holy Roman Emperor. The Pope was, realistically, the most powerful man in that area of the world. He could, quite literally, break kings.

So youre saying that the fact that Cathilic church holds the most real estate in the world, and is possibly one of the richest organization in the world, theyve "gotten it pretty badly"? Yeah, sure. The "little history" that Im unaware of, says that the Church didnt just "reform", it changed to profit from the times. And were talking about putting direct blame to the church, publicly condemning them and questioning the validity of their existence, not saying "oh, I think its OK now, since they dont have as much power as in the 12th and 13th century anyway". But were never going to do that, because religion is something noone wants to go after. Not with 2 billion christians around. And this way, the Chruch has and always will leave unscarred.

And now the Papal State is, what, a few miles around the Vatican? Mostly because the Church and her leaders screwed up. Badly. Very badly. And you're telling me the Church has gotten away without harm? Not terribly likely there, friend. It's control over the lives of millions, and we're talking a literal and direct control in the running of there governments, is gone. Maybe that was God's way of pimp slapping them down for there arrogance. I'm no philosopher, so I can't tell you that. All I know is that by definition people have free will and God will not stop that. No one knows why, though.

Its control was possible only because of slavery and because of the cost of life was small and insignificant. Nowadays they have a control over you through the Bible, "free" will. In the sense that most of the 2 billion christians, in churches eyes, offer stability and some sense of predictability. So tell me now, can we really thank the change in times (and ignore churches profits and massive aquired funds) and say "its even", even though I personally dont see the change of position and status from medieval times to today as a setback? And I havent really gone into what the Church thinks (and says) is right and wrong, yet.

Now, personally, and as you may have gotten already...I ain't Catholic. Nor am I protestant (Witch trials), Muslim (Jihad and Suicide bombings) or even Jewish (destroyed several other nations, possible war crimes). I do believe in God. Don't believe so much in people. Ain't got much of a reason too, which is why I actually like maybe four or five people on this site, and roughly the same number of folks in real life as well.

I dont want this to become a religious debate. Same to you, ValentineKnight.

But faith keeps me going when pain pills don't, when I'm bone tired and hurting like you wouldn't believe. The faith in God and the Church is why many other people keep going. Yeah, it's done harm. So has just about every other institution, governments, companies...but it's never the organization that harms someone, but the people inside it. But it's done good as well. Does that excuse the bad? Hell no. Does that mean we can only look at the bad? Of course not.

Youre missing the point. Any organization that is human and based on and originated from people will always answer for what they are doing*. Not religion. If its not divine, then its not valid.

So, you cannot judge something like a Church on it's past deeds, not fairly, anymore than the German Goverment of today can be held responsible for war crimes of the Nazi party or Obama can be arrested for attempted genocide.

The German Government seized to exist for what it did.

[Darkmoon]

I think its obvious that I was not saying that the Churches are "de facto" divine. Im saying that their status to religious people (to nearly 4 billion, when it comes to muslims and christians) is. If a man is given the choice to ignore the Church, yet murder thousands of people in the name of the Lord, and claim to be his representative on Earth, and still spin this organization using the same claims today, then the Church of medieval times is no different than the Church of today. Based on a lie and deception, peoples fear and ignorance.

I...what? I'm not making much sense of that. Right. As I understand it you're basically saying because people kill in the name of the Church, even though the Church is not directly related to God but a human establishment to worship him, and even though the church itself hasn't done it for a few hundred years, the Church today is evil because of the Church of the past.

Oi.

Look, this is getting really silly now. If you can explain to me why religion makes the church so damned evil compared to Governments or any of the other examples, and why being a religion means changing there system, changing the people, and changing there ways doesn't count then I've missed it. So far all I've gotten is that the Catholic (or all Christian Churches, or maybe all religion) is responsible for deeds performed hundreds of years ago, because it's a religion that's managed to hold on, but a Goverment such as the British or American ones are fine because they aren't religions.

Doesn't it seem a little...biased that you're holding religions to a completely different standard?

So youre saying that the fact that Cathilic church holds the most real estate in the world, and is possibly one of the richest organization in the world, theyve "gotten it pretty badly"? Yeah, sure. The "little history" that Im unaware of, says that the Church didnt just "reform", it changed to profit from the times. And were talking about putting direct blame to the church, publicly condemning them and questioning the validity of their existence, not saying "oh, I think its OK now, since they dont have as much power as in the 12th and 13th century anyway". But were never going to do that, because religion is something noone wants to go after. Not with 2 billion christians around. And this way, the Chruch has and always will leave unscarred.

You're saying having enough cold, hard cash to exist makes up for being able to order the massed armies of the civilized world to attack somewhere, or to dethrone those that they dislike? And dude, you're the one saying the Church has slaughtered innocents and gotten off lily white in both the eyes of God and Man. I was trying to point out that, compared to the point in time when it committed the crimes, it's power has been vastly reduced.

I mean, for crying out loud, there were armies camped outside the Vatican with a list of demands that, if not met, would have ended the Church.

The Church is a shell compared to what it once was. Owning land is great. It gets enough revenue to, more or less, maintain it's buildings and pay for it's bills, although of course it still needs charitable donations on top to help. I've seen some of the richest Catholic buildings...and they're usually in dire need of more repairs.

Its control was possible only because of slavery and because of the cost of life was small and insignificant. Nowadays they have a control over you through the Bible, "free" will. In the sense that most of the 2 billion christians, in churches eyes, offer stability and some sense of predictability. So tell me now, can we really thank the change in times (and ignore churches profits and massive aquired funds) and say "its even", even though I personally dont see the change of position and status from medieval times to today as a setback? And I havent really gone into what the Church thinks (and says) is right and wrong, yet.

Well, for a start, they have about as much control over me as my 360 controller does over you. And I'm pretty sure there aren't 2 billions Christians in the world, let alone Catholics (and bear in mind the crimes you decry were the Catholic Church, a very different beast to Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodox and goodness only knows how many protestant Churches...please tell me you don't just lump all Christians together) and I'm pretty sure Christianity isn't the biggest religion in the world. So 1/3 of the population seems wrong, somehow.

And yes, we can say the Church has moved with the times. Before now if the Pope insulted a Muslim leader they'd laugh a bit, then call a crusade. Now they have to apologize. They haven't got enough power not to.

I must admit, I'm still having trouble with your image of the Catholic Church as this evil monster that draws men and women in, robs them of all will and sends them off to do evil. Because that's the picture you paint. Where as I'm trying to point out the institution itself can't be evil, any more than a sword can, and that only the people can.

I mean, dude, you're arguing the Pope today is as evil as Hitler because a pope several hundred years ago was nasty bastard and they're both part of the Catholic Church...despite the massive changes in both power and policy. You're starting to come off as a little off now.

I dont want this to become a religious debate. Same to you, ValentineKnight.

...you're arguing that a set of rules and rites is as evil as Hitler, and anyone who chooses to join the Church is as evil as Hitler, regardless of there own personal deeds, actions or whatever. Dude, what do you think we're doing?

Youre missing the point. Any organization that is human and based on and originated from people will always answer for what they are doing*. Not religion. If its not divine, then its not valid.

Huh? I agree, I'm clearly missing this point. You're saying, as far as I can tell here, that if the Church does not act in a Godly way then it's not valid. Because it was set up to worship God. Again, I raise the Notcatholic Church point. Removing the Church doesn't wash away it's sins...and nor do the sins of the previous members carry on to today. Just the same as I don't have any guilt over my blood ancestor's crimes.

By this logic, a Goverment that doesn't do things in the best interest of the people it was created to serve must be destroyed...which, I must point out, include pretty much every government since the dawn of time.

The German Government seized to exist for what it did.

True, but it's back now. Germany has a goverment. Ergo it must be guilty for the sins of past Goverments, the same as the Catholic Church is Guilty of the past sins of it's agents.


Look, this is getting crazy. Clearly we're thinking in extremely different ways and, frankly, I'm just as happy to let this thread die. Besides, I'm defending and institution I don't especially like because, well, in this case I don't think it can be blamed for it's past.

I think it might be wise to drop this, and agree to disagree on this one. I sure as hell can't be bothered arguing this point anymore. Can you?

[Member_of_STARS]

Yeah, youre right. Just one thing I want to adress.

You said I hold organized religion and governments under different standards, and thats exactly what I do. Like I said, governments answer to people, Church doesnt. Thats why Church has yet to be procecuted. Its not that I believe that theres a/this God, its how people see and perceive it. And you cant procecute religion until you strip its validity from it, which not one organization or community as large as the Church has yet done. And while Nazi Germany government was disbanded, Church will not be, all while sticking to the same principles they did 700 years ago.

And there are about 1.8 to 2.1 billion Christians, funnily, its said there are more Muslims than Christians.

[Becky's Butt]

I actually always felt Goebbels was the true genius of the Nazis. His talent for politics and insight into how people think is admirable even if his aism were not.

[missvalentine]

This topic is about Hitler. If you want to talk about religion Lets make a topic about it.

You obviously know nothing about Pagans. They do not worship the devil. I know many Pagans, and there are many books about it at the library where I work. Not a single one mentions the devil. And "true witches", which are practioners of Paganism/Wicca, do not worship the devil either. They worship nature. Do a little research before trying to say they are devil worshipers. Paganism is pre-Christian, so Satan doesn't exist to them.

I hate using Wiki, but even if you wiki Pagan, you get this:

Christians called Pagans devil worshipers because they did not follow their beliefs. Any "similarity" is idiotic to say, because many religions share something with another. Christians, Jews, and Muslims, believe it or not, have the very same founding in their holy scriptures. Does that make them all the same? No.

Pagans did human sacrifice back in the dark ages, So did the catholic church, i consider them both evil.

And what exactly do Pagans worship? Satan perhaps. Who's to say it isn't the devil they worship. Is there any stone cold proof that who they worship is not the devil? Just because they don't call him Satan doesn't mean it isn't Satan, i mean haven't you heard the phrase the devil wears sheeps clothing before? It means something may look nice and innocent but it really isn't. How do we know that Satan in the christian religion and whatever Pagans and Witches worship are not the exact same thing but with a different name?

Also Pre-Christian just means before Jesus was born and died on the cross. Since that started the religion of Christianity. But the devil and God existed long before that, and people worshiped them too. Just in very different ways that now, for instance they used animal sacrifices. My proof is the fact that the old testament in the Bible was written before Jesus was born.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't Satanists worship themselves?

Atheistic Satanist do. Theistic Satanists do not.

My guess is the majority of Satanists are Atheistic Satanists, but that doesn't mean the devil worshiper types don't exist too.

[Alexia_Ashford]

The type of Satanism you're talking about is LaVeyanist Satanism, named after the founder, Anton La Vey. It's his followers who wrote the Satanic Bible and the concept of worshipping yourself, not a deity. The traditional Satanists could still exist although it's not very common and it's the La Vey Satanism which is the established and recognized form of Satanism with its own churches.

Anyway, let's direct this to the religion topic now. I don't think many of us have much left to say about Hitler..