10 Things Christians and Athiests Can And Will Agree On

[Trent]

Well, I'll tell you lot one thing. I loathe fucking fanatics of all kinds. I hate those who tar others with a big brush because of one thing, fuck those of you trying to tar me with it. I've read some messages from a few people that I din't really care for, but I respected there opinions. Well, fuck that. I enjoyed debating with MoS, but honestly, there are too many closed minded people who point blank refuse to admit even the slimmest chance they could be wrong, and fuck you if you think different.

That is the first time I see a moderator outright insulting and attacking the members of the forums. You deserve a warning for what you have posted.

Darkmoon, we all need something to believe in. How we do it and in what ways is entirely up to us. Defending what we believe in and saying our opinion on other believers is all part of it, there is no need to get sensetive.

[Darkmoon]

No, actually, I do believe there is. There's a difference between 'this is my belief' and 'your belief is so fucking stupid, you're fucking stupid, everyone like you is fucking stupid.'

Now, let me be clear - you can be an atheist. I got at least two friends here who are. You can be a Christian, a Buddhist, a Satanist...whatever. Do not give a flying monkey shit. But you damn well respect the beliefs of all the forum goers here, and you damn well respect them. Disagree? Fine. Don't care.

But it's not people disagreeing with stuff. It's people bashing religion, taking shot after shot at it, and anyone who believes that. And you know what? Fuck it, I'm angry. No a very scientific thing but sometimes quite fucking appropriate.

Have I called you stupid? Have I called you evil? Why no, no I have not. I said, as your quote so nicely points out, that fanatics are. Regardless of there religion. And, equally, I said some of you guys are acting that way. I never said who. So, unless you're standing up and yelling proudly to the world, 'Yes! ALL people who have a religion are less than me!' then I'm not seeing an issue.

But of course, calling me these things because I'm religious? Totally cool. Totally.

But I've asked another mod to give me some points, for the hell of it. IF he agrees.

[Alexia_Ashford]

Just a friendly warning to everyone in here - if this doesn't stay friendly and respectful of other people's opinions and beliefs (ie. not personal attacks against someone), I will throw points out to everyone involved. Consider this your first and only warning.

[5 Minutes]

h, fuck it. I'm too irriated to be rational at this point. Let me sum it up - too many of you guys are just as fanatical as your rabid Christian screaming about Hell outside an abortion clinic, just as fanatic as a mas Muslim cleric screaming that everyone not a Muslim isn't human and deserves to die. When there's no more room in your mind for doubt, when you look at someone who has a belief other than yours and think of them as less in anyway, you're a fanatic just the same as they are. And no, being a fanatic for science doesn't make it better or worse. It sill makes it fucking stupid though.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

Do you religion bashers not see the hypocrisy? Your generalizations are just as stupid and close-minded as the people who generalize all non-believers as hostile, arrogant people who throw believers in the gutter.

Weird, because that's all that's been done here. Keep your pathetic generalizations to yourself.

[TenderRondo]

Freedom of Religion is one of the Original Twelve Amendments in the Bill of Rights. If you do not exercise that right; you are a communist.

When this whole atheist fad is over, you will all be sorry.

[Stars_g36]

I am agnostic and really close to being Atheist. But I have morals and values built off of how I was raised. I do not see a diminished quality in me for not being religious. I do respect peoples beliefs even though I do not a agree with them all. It's up to a person of whether or not they follow in what they believe in and you can't or shouldn't take that from them for believing in something. The best way I can put it, is that you don't have to agree but you should be supportive and not judgmental towards others on their beliefs and vise versa. Well unless it's a cult or something that will harm others.

[Trent]

“The state of Nature has a law of Nature to govern it, which obliges every one, and reason, which is that law, teaches all mankind who will but consult it, that being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty or possessions." - John Locke

[Alexia_Ashford]

Tenderrodo, I don't think I need to remind you to not try and force your religion down peoples throats by telling Atheists they will be 'sorry' for not being religious and that we are all communists. I've warned everyone to play nice in here and if you get anymore points, you're going to be taking a well-deserved vacation from the site.

[Member_of_STARS]

Guys can we stop with the sweeping generalisation? I mean, accroding to you lovely folks, all religious folks are less intelligent, terrified to see any kind of truth, bigoted against everyone not like them and generally cause evil due to blind faith. They have no moral purpose and re too closed minded to be of any use to the world.

There are two answers. One, Im generalizing because Im trying to send across a point with minimum ammount of time. 85% of Americans identify themselves as religious, yet its doubtful that 85% of Americans are total idiots. Its always the vocal minority which does the most damage, just as the handful of actual Muslim terrorists do to the world and the reputation of their own religion.

Yet, the religious majority may and often does support the vocal and extreme minority. By any sane persons standards, the Republican Party in the States is a bunch of complete retards. Or how a man loses custody over his child because hes agnostic. How religion is tied into politics and how its being used to limit education in schools. How Bible stories are treated equally to knowledge gained through the scientific method, and which have been factually proven to be correct. Religion is detrimental to our society. Yet at the same time there are plenty of studies to show that the reason a person might be religious is perfectly logical and is closely tied to their brain. Right now, all the evidence we have shows that "religion" is subjective, personal. If you enforce such things on the general population, youre effectively limiting what makes us progress as species- being open to new knowledge.

'ALL religious people do this. ALL religious people are like this. ALL religious people think like this. ALL religious people believe this.'

Crude generalization to save time. Its wrong, and it makes me come off offensive, for that I apologize.

Blind faith is stupid, and yet how many scientists have an equally blind faith that science has all the answers? You sure as hell can't prove that any more than I can, but you wouldn't be able to tell by some of these statements.

Science never operates on blind faith. And your understanding of what a "theory" is, is misguided. A "theory" is not "an unproven fact/idea". A scientific theory is an explanation to/of an observation, but it has passed the process of open criticism by the scientific community. What youre talking about is "hypothesis". "Theory" (including the theory of gravity and the theory of evolution) are factually proven knowledge on which we base our technological advancement, and have based on for close to a hundred years. Modern medicine for example is factually standing on evolution theory being correct. Same goes for theory of gravity. But its a bit trickier. Even though we have evidence of it, we can measure it and predict it, we cant observe how it works as we can with evolution (which by the way, has been documented and is being documented factually- take humans as the best example, our height and intellectual capacity has changed over the last 500 years). However, current explanation is what it is, limited, due to lack of information and lack of understanding. Physics is a wide subject. But, the strenght of science, and not its weakness as many religious apologists will claim, is that science is always open to new knowledge. Its a neverending process of perfecting the understanding of the world.

This is not how faith and religion work, and this certainly cannot be used as an argument against science.

As I'm sure MoS will be happy to explain, a lot of what you know isn't proven. Take how gravity works. It's a theory. We have evidence for it. It makes sense. But it's not a deffinite thing.

It will be, in time. Just as Evolution theory was not a definite thing, it is today. Its factual and undeniable. Anyone arguing against Evolution is a moron. Its arguing against the necessity of oxygen. But in its infancy, even though the original idea and hypothesis was sound, it wasnt accepted and Darwin had no idea how complex it would/could be.

It's not a perfect theory, and that's the problem...despite the evidence for it, it's still considered a theory because there is no certain evidence. The Theory of Evoloution is the same.

This is the biggest problem I have with creationists/religious people and religious apologists who position themselves against science. As a rule, they dont know what theories are, what kind of a process does it take for it to be accepted by the scientific community. Imagine someone important coming up with an idea, and then imagine tens of thousands of people who feel like they will receive a Nobel prize for destroying that persons idea (theory). This is how it works. Faith, here, is the least effective weapon. As for Evolution, the evidence of it is conclusive. If you want to debate about Evolution, there are thousands of videos on Youtube, made by educated people, crushing the opposition on a daily basis (and much to my personal "lulz").

But, and this is the kicker, science gets it wrong, until it gets it correct.

Fixed. Thats a narrowminded view. Science advances as a whole. Research and success in one field open new possibilities and answer questions in another. Considering how much of your faily life is depending on "theories" today (theory of electrical current, just throwing it out there). Again, "a theory", and you cant see electrons with your eyes. For some, that alone means its "a non proven theory" or "not a fact, just a theory".

Again, as MoS will attest to, every year we have a theory that yesterday was regarded as perfectly safe, perfectly solid and perfectly rational collapse in the face of new evidence.

"In the face of new evidence" usually suggests a change in theory, not it collapsing. Just as the original idea behind Evolution theory is still the same, but its far more complex and theres so much information and knowledge added to it as our technological advancement allowed us to gain knowledge we couldnt before.

And yet a blind faith that science has all the answers?

Considering we live enjoy our lives all thanks to science and no thanks to faith, Id say that "blind faith in science" is certainly more valid compared to "blind faith in my gut". Science advanced and gets its strenght because people constantly want to prove it wrong. As Ive described the process of "peer review" above, in simple terms. And youre generalizing here- we dont think science "has" all the answers, we think science will "get us" all the answers, "eventually".

You know, it's tiring having people looking down on you because you think that there might be a God. I don't have a specific set of believes. I don't believe in Adam and Even beyond the idea of the single shared ancestor humanity has, I don't believe in Hell, or Satan. I'm pretty fucking sure the world is more than 7000 years old, because I've handled things that I'm pretty sure are older. I have assembled the bones of a dinosaur, and held the skull of a child that, if tests are true, died 500,000 years ago. I have a tested IQ of 139.

Im not going to compliment you on anything, because I assume youre perfectly capable of recognizing when people generally like you/respect you or not. When I look down on someone, its because they happen to be an idiot. An intelligent, fun, great person can believe in God and I will still look up to them. Not to their belief, but to them as a person. I dont think you should feel bad here, youre putting your ideas on the table and thus you make yourself open to criticism. Welcome to being "peer reviewed".

As much as THIS hurts, imagine the 15% of nonreligious people in US, or someone in Muslim nations claiming to be an atheist. Youll get a few bad looks, we get killed and our rights limited. Wild shit, huh?

But because I believe there might be something more than buying and fucking my way through life, that something might be after this, even though I admit it's faith, even though I admit I could be wrong...I'm afraid of the truth, I'm a bad person, I'm judgemental, I'm suffering from mind control 'cos I'm too fucking simple to think for myself, I'm bigoted. All because I have a fucking religion.

Yes.

Well, I'll tell you lot one thing. I loathe fucking fanatics of all kinds.

Same here. Unfortunately this is not the kind of issue where you "lead by example" and show everyone how openminded they are in hopes they catch up. All while theres a serious debate in some states on whether to ban abortion or not. Religion has such a drastic impact on peoples freedoms and rights, that it has to be met with extreme measures. In which case, its intellectual debates. While the opposition resorts to bombing abortion clinics...

I enjoyed debating with MoS, but honestly, there are too many closed minded people who point blank refuse to admit even the slimmest chance they could be wrong, and fuck you if you think different.

I know youre pissed. But considering that everything you enjoy in this life (including your children who are alive), are due to specifically not having faith, you could be arguing against a position with something that is insufficient.

Let me sum it up - too many of you guys are just as fanatical as your rabid Christian screaming about Hell outside an abortion clinic, just as fanatic as a mas Muslim cleric screaming that everyone not a Muslim isn't human and deserves to die.

Thats totally different. Im resorting to having a debate. Im not out to limit your rights to believe in whatever you want, but I will gladly talk/debate/argue about it, if you want aswell. Theres a reason why modern nations are so insisting on separating church from state.

When there's no more room in your mind for doubt, when you look at someone who has a belief other than yours and think of them as less in anyway, you're a fanatic just the same as they are. And no, being a fanatic for science doesn't make it better or worse. It sill makes it fucking stupid though.

Atheism is not a belief. Its a lack of any belief. Theres a significant difference. Just as not believing in Santa is not a belief on its own. We look up to people and down on them on a daily basis because we judge everyone. Their clothing, their manners, the way they talk/walk/look. Were fucking stupid all the time Doesnt make us fanatics. Youre a fanatic once you support harming or harm yourself for limiting the rights and/or freedoms of people based on nothing but your own subjective opinion or the subjective opinion of a group.

Freedom of Religion is one of the Original Twelve Amendments in the Bill of Rights. If you do not exercise that right; you are a communist.

When this whole atheist fad is over, you will all be sorry.

I believe theres something about Freedom of Speech aswell. Communist? Do you know what communism is?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIHRGUMr3Ak&feature=share

[5 Minutes]

Tenderrodo, I don't think I need to remind you to not try and force your religion down peoples throats by telling Atheists they will be 'sorry' for not being religious and that we are all communists. I've warned everyone to play nice in here and if you get anymore points, you're going to be taking a well-deserved vacation from the site.

He wasn’t trying to force anything down anyone’s throat. Technically, he never stated whether or not if he was a believer nor tried in no way to convince or sway someone. Saying atheists will be sorry is not the same as “YOU NEED TO CONVERT TO A CHRISTIAN AND OBEY THE LAWS OF MY GOD! DO SO OR HAVE YOUR SOULD SENT TO HELL FOR ETERNITY”

Don’t be so quick to accuse someone of something, regardless if it’s an implication. Wait until it actually happens. His generalization about atheist being communist is no different from the generalizations stated about believers. I know it would feel good to jump on a believer for any small reason and ban them, but be a little more open.

All he did was generalize.

Atheism is not a belief.

Wrong. Atheism is a belief, a belief that deities don’t exist and the rejection of the belief in them. A belief is essentially to hold something true. Atheist holds their own ideas, facts, propositions (whatever) to be true, so therefore it is a belief. To say that atheism is not a belief - is to say that, atheist don’t hold their own propositions to be true. You do, right or have you been lying the whole time - see what I mean?

The issue is, is that your tippy toeing around the use of the word “belief” to the point where you’re throwing it around loosely. You are relating the word itself too much to religion when there is only a general connection - the same that can be used for anything held as the truth by one self. You need not to be afraid of atheism being labeled as a belief, simply because the word belief is often thought of when thinking of one’s religion.

Its a lack of any belief.

Be specific? As I mentioned earlier, you're referring to deities/gods. But again, in this case you're using the word belief to imply truth in god(s)/religion. You can't do that, again, a belief is just to hold some true - whatever it is.

[Member_of_STARS]

A belief is essentially to hold something true.

http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Is_Atheism_a_%22belief%22%3F

The absence of belief is not belief.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

http://www.google.ee/search?hl=et&client=firefox-a&hs=W4J&rls=org.mozilla:et:official&defl=en&q=define:belief&sa=X&ei=KcodTbKxLcOZOpDtyboJ&ved=0CBQQkAE

In short, belief is an assumed truth.

[Darkmoon]

He wasn’t trying to force anything down anyone’s throat. Technically, he never stated whether or not if he was a believer nor tried in no way to convince or sway someone. Saying atheists will be sorry is not the same as “YOU NEED TO CONVERT TO A CHRISTIAN AND OBEY THE LAWS OF MY GOD! DO SO OR HAVE YOUR SOULD SENT TO HELL FOR ETERNITY”

Don’t be so quick to accuse someone of something, regardless if it’s an implication. Wait until it actually happens. His generalization about atheist being communist is no different from the generalizations stated about believers. I know it would feel good to jump on a believer for any small reason and ban them, but be a little more open.

All he did was generalize.

Unfortunately, this isn't the first issue we've had with TenderRondo. He has, literally, been harrasing at least one member via private message, insisting they prey for forgiveness for there sins. He even did it, to a point, in a nother thread.

Needless to say, we're a touch tired of it.

[5 Minutes]

http://www.freethoughtpedia.com/wiki...22belief%22%3F

The absence of belief is not belief.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

http://www.google.ee/search?hl=et&cl...J&ved=0CBQQkAE

In short, belief is an assumed truth.

^ Again, and this is from all of those beautiful links:

Every belief is not assumed, that's only in regards to impression beliefs, we're not discussing impressions or feelings of hope and faith, but what they indeed hold as the solid truth as in what it is not what you're assuming it to be or what you have faith in.



Atheism is a lack of belief in god(s)

1. OK, we get it, you LACK BELIEF, in GOD(S) but you don't lack belief in everything else.

So in other words, deities don't exist to you, correct? That is your proposition right - that god(s) don't exist? And you hold that to be true, correct? Regardless if your stance is that God solely does not exist or that you just that you don't believe he exist based off lacking feelings or no proof - a belief is a belief.

2. Now, Read on:

- A statement you say to yourself about someone, or something that you hold true

- any cognitive content held as true

- Belief is the psychological state in which an individual holds a proposition or premise to be true.

You hold that God does not exist to be true right? Ok, that is your belief, those are the beliefs of atheist.

Do you not see the contradiction? It's spelled out clear as day, even in your own links.

- Again, this is mainly because people in general tie the word, "belief" to religion and/or gods when it's not the case - and you expectantly as an atheist, want to stray away from anything god/religion related - thus all the not-surprising emphasis by atheist in regards to ATHEISM IS NOT A BELIEF.

Belief is to hold something to be true DOESN'T MATTER WHAT IT IS. This really isn't subjective and just a matter of word usage and general misunderstandings about the use and association of a word, in this case it being "belief".

[Alexia_Ashford]

He wasn’t trying to force anything down anyone’s throat. Technically, he never stated whether or not if he was a believer nor tried in no way to convince or sway someone. Saying atheists will be sorry is not the same as “YOU NEED TO CONVERT TO A CHRISTIAN AND OBEY THE LAWS OF MY GOD! DO SO OR HAVE YOUR SOULD SENT TO HELL FOR ETERNITY”

Don’t be so quick to accuse someone of something, regardless if it’s an implication. Wait until it actually happens. His generalization about atheist being communist is no different from the generalizations stated about believers. I know it would feel good to jump on a believer for any small reason and ban them, but be a little more open.

All he did was generalize.

Please be aware of all the facts before accusing me of jumping on someone for something and trying to ban a believer as if I am biased doing my job. I also notice you don't mention anything in response to Darkmoon's post where he says what the issues actually are. There's a difference between generalizing and the latter:

“YOU NEED TO CONVERT TO A CHRISTIAN AND OBEY THE LAWS OF MY GOD! DO SO OR HAVE YOUR SOULD SENT TO HELL FOR ETERNITY”

which is more like what people have been recieiving via. private message. Get your facts right before trying to accuse me of something. I don't care whether people are religious or not, I consider MoS and Darkmoon both very good friends and their religious stance means nothing to me, and your insinuation that I am trying to ban someone for their beliefs has quite frankly, pissed me off.

Edit: I also like how you agreed with Darkmoon about Atheists generalizing religious folk, yet you obviously do not know me at all yet you tie me in with the Atheist religion basher brush. Darkmoon can vouch for the fact that I am not, and I was asking him about his faith last night because I actually find it very interesting. Hypocrisy, much?

[5 Minutes]

^ You forget, we're discussing what went on here, at least I am.

I don't care what he does via p.m., I am not the ones receiving them and you can handle that accordingly. I am saying that what he did was not the same as telling some to pray for mercy or whatever he did in his other matters. No need to bash him for THIS, in this topic, for an unrelated incident.

I am more than positive that you are bias in regards to your job - that is my belief. Why? Because I hold it to be true. (that's just a little side joke.)



At any rate, it's a matter of relevance. What's so hard about keeping the issues to where they belong and addressing them independently? Now, I have my facts right, need more clarification from my stance? No need to fill the topic with (Oh I know what you did in regards to another incident - it obviously leads to off topic discussions as in this case.

Now, can we move on?