Capcom is slow

[Biohazard EX]

That's like saying the fog in Silent Hill, or the stealth aspect of Metal Gear was just a rudiment left from when technology was limited. The best things in the world came from technical limitations.

3.5's explorative aspect wasn't done behind the shoulder. And from what I've seen, the Camera wasn't manipulative either.

I haven't played a single over the shoulder camera game that scared me. Not RE4, not Silent Hill Homecoming, not Dead Space.

[Member_of_STARS]

That's like saying the fog in Silent Hill, or the stealth aspect of Metal Gear was just a rudiment left from when technology was limited. The best things in the world came from technical limitations.

*ahem*

No its not. But if you want to compare. The rudiments in MGS was lack of adequate user dependant engagement and strictly "on top" view.

In Silent Hill, you could say everything in RE was.

Right now, youre trying to tell me that predendered graphics were not a smart way of overcoming technical limitations but full blown features.

3.5's explorative aspect wasn't done behind the shoulder. And from what I've seen, the Camera wasn't manipulative either.

Ive told that 2 times already in this very same thread. Fixed camera roaming and user dependant aiming. Which, in childrens language means 3rd perspective exploration and over the shoulder, manual killing. (Jesus Christ!)

I haven't played a single over the shoulder camera game that scared me. Not RE4, not Silent Hill Homecoming, not Dead Space.

Cold Fear.

But your comparison is invalid. No horror game scares me nowadays, its because weve grown up.

[Darkmoon]

I think games are just as scary now, honestly. I got scared at BioShock, for example. Those things were nasty and pretty damned lethal. I just think the old tricks, like evil dog through window, don't work so well anymore and a lot of developers don't seem to be capable of thinking of anything more origional than, 'If a few enemies don't scare them hundreds will!'

[Member_of_STARS]

I think games are just as scary now, honestly. I got scared at BioShock, for example. Those things were nasty and pretty damned lethal. I just think the old tricks, like evil dog through window, don't work so well anymore and a lot of developers don't seem to be capable of thinking of anything more origional than, 'If a few enemies don't scare them hundreds will!'

Hmm. Youre right. I completely forgot the underground labs in STALKER. X16, X18 and X10, if I remember correctly. Excellent and well made, especially once some certain mutants are re-enabled by mods. A fat dwarf in a coat can be scary as hell (no sarcasm), given the right atmosphere. You can still scare a grown man.

But honestly, with being desensities to pretty much any effort, what can devs do? Make you wear headphones, shut the lights and stay alone with a warning on the opening screen? haha.

[Biohazard EX]

*ahem*

No its not. But if you want to compare. The rudiments in MGS was lack of adequate user dependant engagement and strictly "on top" view.

The point is, if it wasn't for technical limitations, for all we know, stealth games wouldn't even exist. It was the first, and it was BECAUSE of technical limitations that stealth action genre came about.

Right now, youre trying to tell me that predendered graphics were not a smart way of overcoming technical limitations but full blown features.

Maybe not at the time. But by the time games like REmake came about, yes, it was a full blown feature. At least I saw it as one. Same with the Tank Controls

Cold Fear.

Okay, I'll give you that one. If it wasn't for the poor mechanics, I'd still be enjoying that one.

But your comparison is invalid. No horror game scares me nowadays, its because weve grown up.

Well, I'm not much ore grown up now, than I was 1 year ago, and one year ago I thought Silent Hill Origins was pretty damn creepy.

And even now, when I replay some horror games that I haven't played in ages, like Silent Hill 1, I'm creeped out as hell.

I still have two old school survival horror games to play through, Alone in the Dark: The New Nightmare, and Martian Gothic: Unification, both of which I tried for about 10 minutes, and both of which creeped me out in those ten minutes. AND, both of which have pre-rendered cameras and tank controls, just like the old school RE games.

So how is my argument invalid?

[Member_of_STARS]

The point is, if it wasn't for technical limitations, for all we know, stealth games wouldn't even exist. It was the first, and it was BECAUSE of technical limitations that stealth action genre came about.

What are you talking about? Are you honestly trying to say that games like Splinter Cell and Assassins Creed wouldnt have existed without MGS? Did you even stop to think that the "stealth action" genre wasnt even started by the Solid series, but much earlier. Not just that, MGS series have actually very LITTLE stealth as its pretty much only avoiding confrontation with exceptionally stupid AI. In fact, Id say the "stealth" title MGS games carry are nothing but glorified add-on-title for marketing purposes (or more likely, selfgratification).

Stealth is an option in MGS, shooting sh!t up, ever since MGS2, has been the most likely and most enjoyable part of the gameplay.

My point is that a lot of what MGS is missing in, and what many consider as features, are a result of hardware limitations.

Maybe not at the time. But by the time games like REmake came about, yes, it was a full blown feature. At least I saw it as one. Same with the Tank Controls

Thats because it was a *remake*. Not a reimaging, but a remake. And STILL, the prerendered background is still there because of hardware limitations. Only recently has hardware enabled developers to have exceptional graphics with interactive background (bulletholes, destructability). Prerendered backgrounds just fit with 3rd perspective better. REmake was also the ultimate fanfare, last glare at the past.

Okay, I'll give you that one. If it wasn't for the poor mechanics, I'd still be enjoying that one.

How does it have poor mechanics? The engagement is super fun, you have two different ways of roaming (the more control you have, the bigger the impact from tunnel vision, which I found to be brilliant). It was a lot more fun to shoot stuff up than it was in RE4.

Well, I'm not much ore grown up now, than I was 1 year ago, and one year ago I thought Silent Hill Origins was pretty damn creepy.

And even now, when I replay some horror games that I haven't played in ages, like Silent Hill 1, I'm creeped out as hell.

I still have two old school survival horror games to play through, Alone in the Dark: The New Nightmare, and Martian Gothic: Unification, both of which I tried for about 10 minutes, and both of which creeped me out in those ten minutes. AND, both of which have pre-rendered cameras and tank controls, just like the old school RE games.

So how is my argument invalid?

Youre trying to tell me that the "over the shoulder view" automatically means its not "horror". Then throw in a barrage of examples of games which utilize outdated controls and say they offer better "survival horror" experience. Its your opinion and I would have even agreed with you, except you listed every 3rd person game in there, obviously just to prove a point.

Now. I havent felt any horror in any of the old skool survival horror games in years. Even Outbreaks, which I regard as my favourite RE games. So whos argument is stronger?

And this is why I call your argument as invalid. Youre comparing the uncomparable.

[Guest]

But if every RE takes 4 years to be made,we will have one RE per console generation
And this REALLY suckss

[Member_of_STARS]

But if every RE takes 4 years to be made,we will have one RE per console generation
And this REALLY suckss

So the 64´000 dollar question is: if a game takes 4 years to make, can you be satisfied with anything but stellar perfomance in every category?

Its not like most companies operate on Valve-time, but they certainly operate on EA-style...

[Biohazard EX]

How does it have poor mechanics? The engagement is super fun, you have two different ways of roaming (the more control you have, the bigger the impact from tunnel vision, which I found to be brilliant). It was a lot more fun to shoot stuff up than it was in RE4.

I just didn't like how it played, I always had a hard time aiming with it. It didn't have an acceleration to it, it was very sudden.

Now. I havent felt any horror in any of the old skool survival horror games in years. Even Outbreaks, which I regard as my favourite RE games. So whos argument is stronger?

And this is why I call your argument as invalid. Youre comparing the uncomparable.

You're missing the point completely.
You said it yourself, you don't get scared at any game anymore. So you're the one who's comparing the uncomparable. Because you're not gonna find the old school games scary. And you're not gonna find the new games scary. Simply because you don't get scared. Period.

I still do get creeped out at certain games. And none of those games include the over the shoulder 'horror' titles that came out in the past 3 years.

I CAN compare because I'm not completely desensitized to it.

[Carnivol]

Its not like most companies operate on Valve-time, but they certainly operate on EA-style...

No.

you're the one who's comparing the uncomparable. Because you're not gonna find the old school games scary. And you're not gonna find the new games scary. Simply because you don't get scared. Period.

When games started to lose the fright factor for me (and a few other things), I did a few things to improve things

1: I set up a more dedicated entertainment setup. ($2200)
2: I added a new sound system with some solid speakers. ($2000)
3: Kick everything up a notice difficulty vice if possiel. (FREE)

(Of course, you don't have to get a high end Samsung screen, a full new TV rack and an expensive sound system to get everything up and running for some great entertainment. Many cheaper big screens these days are even better than my previous screen... and I had no complains about that one, really. And the sound system can definitively be cut down if you go with a simple home theater package. Just getting that surround sound atmosphere into your livingroom is what's important)

Has worked wonders for a good few pieces of media that had totally lost charm and appeal + it certainly helped making music games and even more awesome too.

[Mr_Zombie]

Did you even stop to think that the "stealth action" genre wasnt even started by the Solid series, but much earlier.

Well, Metal Gear series on MSX was one of the first games to use stealth as a main gameplay element. (According to Wikipedia, the very first was a game called "Castle Wolfenstein" and its sequel both for the Apple II).

Evading in RE, aswell as defense items should have been there in RE2, not 6 years later.

Funny thing is, RE 1.5 was to have lots of gameplay elements that were eventually scraped in RE2 and were used in later entries in the series.

[Member_of_STARS]

I just didn't like how it played, I always had a hard time aiming with it. It didn't have an acceleration to it, it was very sudden.

You mean it didnt have that horrible control lag to it that most console games do? I played Cold Fear on PC and I was thanking God throughout the whole game. Later, when a number of ports were introduced to PC (like Vegas, Gears, even RE4), it was just terrible to see that your aim is hindered by something which does not belong to an analogue device (keyboard) or an 80 dollar piece of gaming equipment (MX518 mouse).

You're missing the point completely.

I am?

You listed 3 games with over the shoulder view, out of which one was a pure action title which didnt belong to the list anyway, and at least one of the three was hailed by many people as a very good survival horror title with excellent horror elements in it. And wasnt Homecoming a sub par title to begin with? You take these three games (and I believe you played Dead Space on easiest difficulty), out of which two are either broken or do not belong in SH category, and say that "over the shoulder view doesnt work" as if its the perspectives fault. Its like me saying that survival horror doesnt work because of Gaiden!

Thus, your comparison is in-va-lid.

No.

No?

Ever heard of "first day patches"?

Next time your argument contains less than five characters, you might aswell keep it to yourself.

[WeskerSexyCheez]

I wouldn't say anybody is slow now. It just takes longer to make games because with all the tech nowadays, they can put more in to make them interesting. And of course, you need the money to make them. It's not like they just churn em' out for free, y'know. If a game flumps, chances are the next one made will take longer as they struggle to find the money, investors, etc.

[Carnivol]

Technological advancements should be implemented, if possible (without compromising the core of the franchise).

A general rule of thumb in pretty much the designing and creation of pretty much anything is; Don't fix something if it's not broken.

Well, it's not like I didn't like the evading system in RE3, or the defense item system in the REmake.
But as soon as you say, "Okay, we need something new, something innovative, something unique because otherwise the critics are gonna shit on us," you completely abandon the idea that some things should be conserved.

Exactly. You find the defining element of something, you keep it. Which is why RE4-5 has kept the "tank controls" of the original titles. As it plays a huge part in the whole presentation.

And then you get Japanese RPGS with a crappy hack and slash system instead of polished turn based combat.

Dunno which franchise(s) you're referring to, but I can at least think of one that has a "hack and slash" fighting system that I find much more engaging, polished and flawlessly executed than several big names beat 'em ups. And I like it when not every single RPG plays the same. ('cause that's what they have a bad habit of doing now that stories are about as original as new brands of cereal and about as interesting as an episode of Teletubbies (and probably targeted towards the same age group) and all that is left is to either replay the same old or to find something with a bit of variety.

i totaly agree, i hate it when games drastically change, i don't mind tiny little samll changes but i mostly like them to stay the same, just with an update to the story and a new location or something, and then people may say but after a while it would get boring, but i say,no it wont cause unless you plan on milking you can actuallyend a series whenever you want you know, you don't have to go on forever.

Well said.

Evading in RE, aswell as defense items should have been there in RE2, not 6 years later. Furthermore, the concept of 3rd perspective roaming and over the shoulder engagement (RE3.5) should have been there since RE went on PS2. Im not talking about complete redefinition of the series, you missed the point entirely. Im talking about not standing still until the series have been milked dry.

RE is about its techno-thriller roots, zombies, science and Umbrella and survival horror. If these are kept, why not utilizing advantages in the AI development, environment interaction, some freedom of choice and a more fun engagement system?

Resident Evil 4-5 and Outbreak 1-2?

I think that dramatic camera angles are a part of the Survival Horror genre. And that's something that shouldn't have been changed. At least not glued to the back of the character like it has been.
If the camera isn't fixed, then it should be at least like in Silent Hill 2. But not glued to the back of the character.

Presentation can be done in whatever way it wants. As long as the end result "works".

Fixed camera angles are just rudiments left from days when technology was crippled and limited. It doesnt have to be fixed on the player, but its not part of survival horror either. Survival horror is about setting and limited resources. Fixed camera angle is a great and simple tool to create a claustrophobic setting, but is not the only thing that can accomplish this.

Like I said, RE3.5 pulled it off the best. Horror and claustrophobia in roaming and fun and user dependant engagement in "L1" mode.

Fixed Camera angles is part of a cinematic presentation tool and Resident Evil 3.5 most of all seems to've been a mess, judging from the available content.

Right now, youre trying to tell me that predendered graphics were not a smart way of overcoming technical limitations but full blown features.

They were both.
(A feature and a way of overcoming the technical limitations of the system)

But your comparison is invalid. No horror game scares me nowadays, its because weve grown up.

No?

Ever heard of "first day patches"?

Next time your argument contains less than five characters, you might aswell keep it to yourself.

You don't get to tell people what to do, what to say and how to think around here. Just a general heads up. Besides the answer you got was a very insightful and correct answer

Anyway, what about "First Day Patches"?

[Darkmoon]

First day patches appear to be something to help reduce PMS. Which is silly because you aren't a wom...

Oh, I see. Insults it is then. Or, rather, infractions.