...Jesus-ween? Seriously!?

[Darkmoon]

Well, gee, I dunno...not funding them to a point where bin Laden couldn't pay the man in charge of protecting him, reporting family members who join extremist groups to the authorities, publicly condoning them, invading a foreign nation and looting it in the name of peace...or was the last one us?

Of course, I'm sure you can tell me exactly how they could do more, in the same way we stop our extremists, like the Westboro Church, Timothy McVeigh and such from causing problems.

And I pray for you, Al, that one day you'll learn that people are people and don't deserve to be judged.

On that note, I'm way too disgusted to look at this thread again unless someone reports something. I'm out.

[PracticalAl]

Well, gee, I dunno...not funding them to a point where bin Laden couldn't pay the man in charge of protecting him, reporting family members who join extremist groups to the authorities, publicly condoning them, invading a foreign nation and looting it in the name of peace...or was the last one us?

Of course, I'm sure you can tell me exactly how they could do more, in the same way we stop our extremists, like the Westboro Church, Timothy McVeigh and such from causing problems.

And I pray for you, Al, that one day you'll learn that people are people and don't deserve to be judged.

On that note, I'm way too disgusted to look at this thread again unless someone reports something. I'm out.

I never said the U.S was handling the problem exceptionally well, which had nothing to do with the questions anyway. You're just dodging the question, because there is no answer other than "nothing" The silence and inactions of the peaceful majority is only part of the problem.

And just how many people did Timothy Mcveigh or the Westboro church kill? You can equate Christian extremists to Muslim extremists when one, the Bible commands followers to kill as does the Quran, and two, the Christian extremist terror list matches that of the Islamic one.

I don't recall anywhere in this thread where I have judged anyone. I have said nothing in condemnation to the peaceful majority other than that their silence is part of the problem. Did I not just say in my last post to not judge Muslims based on Islam and vice versa?

The truth is tough to swallow, and sometimes even disgusting, but such is the world we live in.

[Darkmoon]

No, I haven't read any new posts. So I'm not likely to reply to them. I simply remembered a good way of summing up my feelings on this thread -http://somethingpositive.net/sp10042006.shtml - read until the October 19th one for the story arc to complete.

The shortest verse in the Bible is 'Jesus wept.' The only thing wrong with it is the past tense.

[Ununoctium]

I watched it as promised, here is my response:

0:10 "Anyone who disagrees with me is a filthy, infidel swine" This is a stab at the Qur'an obviously, there is nothing like this in the Bible. I agree.

1:20 In reference to him suggesting that people like to speculate without a "single, shred of evidence" is entirely false for Christianity. There is a plethora of evidence in the Bible supporting our beliefs, it's just a matter of whether or not one is biased against it.- if you don't mind me asking, what proof is there that God (or gods) exist? Didn't the creationists try that with intelligent design but it failed?

1:50 "Unfortunate that many people believe the first thing they're told and stick to it for the rest of their life". The same can be said for atheists and agnostics, so this argument is mute. Aside from that the Bible says: "1 Thessalonians 5:21 - But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;" meaning, don't just believe what you're told, do your research. - Of course it could be true for atheists, but the whole point of agnosticism is that you "don't know the answers" and keep an open mind, thus at any time you can join atheism or Christianity or even Islam

2:20 Referring to the "indoctrination of children with hateful absurdities" can also be said about any secular or atheistic institute. These aren't always exclusively religious either, such as the indoctrination of the theory of evolution in schools, or the indoctrination of hate towards America taught to North Korean children. As for the Bible supposedly falling into this category, show me what exactly in the Bible is a "hateful absurdity".The Bible preaches hateful absurdities against homosexuals, women, African Americans, Jews, and people who practice other religions. Same with the Qu'ran, only it's more extreme.

2:37 Again, the speaker is being contradictory by accusing religious beliefs of indoctrination, but completely negating the indoctrination of secularism/naturalism in today's society. - How is secularism indoctrinating? Secularism is the opposite, it is accepting everyone's beliefs without sponsoring any particular belief

2:53 Suggesting a "mental health warning" on the Bible is laughable. Just look up any statistical study of the happiness of those who believe in God vs. the happiness of those who don't. Christians are some of the most happy, productive, healthy and charitable people on the planet. - There may be more happy "Christians" than "happy atheists" but please bare in mind that the vast majority of people who claim they are "Christian" don't actually practice or believe in that anymore, that's just how they were raised and they don't care to bother to think about whether or not they still believe in it. They just go along with it because there are more important matters in their life than thinking about their religious beliefs or lack there of.

3:20 "There is no kingdom to come, we are already in it". His proof?.. He claimed that and yet said nothing to prove it. I can make a whole bunch of assertive statements without anything to back them up too, it doesn't make me right. (And he has the gall to call people with belief in God "stone age" minds? Right.) - To be fair, anyone who believes that Jesus Christ physically rose from the grave and ascended into heaven does need to have their head examined. And they are stone aged, especially the Muslims.

^

[PracticalAl]

@Darkmoon: Ignoring controversial discussions or things you disagree with is a great way of never learning or growing as a person. How sad. My pastor always says "Whenever someone says something you disagree with, listen even harder".

Jesus certainly weeps; weeps for those who ignore His Word and reject His salvation.

EDIT:
If you don't mind me asking, what proof is there that God (or gods) exist? Didn't the creationists try that with intelligent design but it failed?
The existence of the universe, for starters! The Bible, of course, which includes history, science, witness testimony, etc all leading to proof of God. (This is of course is a whole other discussion.) I don't think it's fair to say intelligent design has "failed" in any realm? It's a matter of what you choose to believe.

Of course it could be true for atheists, but the whole point of agnosticism is that you "don't know the answers" and keep an open mind, thus at any time you can join atheism or Christianity or even Islam
"You don't know the answers", and yet you seem pretty cocksure God doesn't exist it. What's stopping you from coming to a firm decision? There is plenty of research to be had. Anyone who says "We can never really know" hasn't studied hard enough. But if you are truly "open" as an agnostic, then you must be objective to everything, correct? So, perhaps I am now offering you the answers you've been looking for? (And exactly where does being in the middle of the road get you? We only have one life to live. I'd much rather believe in God, die and find out there isn't one, than not believe in God and find out there is.)

The Bible preaches hateful absurdities against homosexuals, women, African Americans, Jews, and people who practice other religions. Same with the Qu'ran, only it's more extreme.
Specific chapters and verses for each of these, please.

How is secularism indoctrinating? Secularism is the opposite, it is accepting everyone's beliefs without sponsoring any particular belief
Because that is what is being taught in schools, rather than have the children decide their own world views. Secularism is hardly accepting of other's beliefs. It can be just as dogmatic as "fundamentalist" religions.

There may be more happy "Christians" than "happy atheists" but please bare in mind that the vast majority of people who claim they are "Christian" don't actually practice or believe in that anymore, that's just how they were raised and they don't care to bother to think about whether or not they still believe in it. They just go along with it because there are more important matters in their life than thinking about their religious beliefs or lack there of.
I agree with this. Most Christians aren't "practicing" Christians, however, it does not negate the fact that they are statistically happier whether or not they practice ritually. (And I would further argue, that practicing Christians are happier than non-practicing Christians.)

To be fair, anyone who believes that Jesus Christ physically rose from the grave and ascended into heaven does need to have their head examined. And they are stone aged, especially the Muslims.
Were you there? Can you prove otherwise? Offer me an alternative explanation for his missing body in the tomb.

[Ununoctium]

@Darkmoon: Ignoring controversial discussions or things you disagree with is a great way of never learning or growing as a person. How sad. My pastor always says "Whenever someone says something you disagree with, listen even harder".

Jesus certainly weeps; weeps for those who ignore His Word and reject His salvation.

EDIT:
If you don't mind me asking, what proof is there that God (or gods) exist? Didn't the creationists try that with intelligent design but it failed?
The existence of the universe, for starters! The Bible, of course, which includes history, science, witness testimony, etc all leading to proof of God. (This is of course is a whole other discussion.) I don't think it's fair to say intelligent design has "failed" in any realm? It's a matter of what you choose to believe.
The entire point of intelligent design was to try and make it seem like creationism could be seen as science, yet it was universal cockblocked when it's supporters tried to make it be taught in schools and the entire scientific community rejected it. You can't really use the Bible as an example of the existence of a god. That's just using a book to say that the same book is right, without any factual grounds for that statement.

Of course it could be true for atheists, but the whole point of agnosticism is that you "don't know the answers" and keep an open mind, thus at any time you can join atheism or Christianity or even Islam
"You don't know the answers", and yet you seem pretty cocksure God doesn't exist it. What's stopping you from coming to a firm decision? There is plenty of research to be had. Anyone who says "We can never really know" hasn't studied hard enough. But if you are truly "open" as an agnostic, then you must be objective to everything, correct? So, perhaps I am now offering you the answers you've been looking for? (And exactly where does being in the middle of the road get you? We only have one life to live. I'd much rather believe in God, die and find out there isn't one, than not believe in God and find out there is.)
No I don't' know the answers, and no one does, but a 2000+ year old book isn't going to tell you the answers. The Bible can't answer anything, because the Bible doesn't ask any questions.

The Bible preaches hateful absurdities against homosexuals, women, African Americans, Jews, and people who practice other religions. Same with the Qu'ran, only it's more extreme.
Specific chapters and verses for each of these, please.
I don't have specific verses, but it's well known for these things:
Racism / Slavery: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_slavery
Homosexuality: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bib..._homosexuality & http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christi..._homosexuality
Sexism: http://members.shaw.ca/tfrisen/Bbl/Sexism/Sexism.html & Deuteronomy 25-11 / 25-12
Anti-Semetism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christi...d_antisemitism


How is secularism indoctrinating? Secularism is the opposite, it is accepting everyone's beliefs without sponsoring any particular belief
Because that is what is being taught in schools, rather than have the children decide their own world views. Secularism is hardly accepting of other's beliefs. It can be just as dogmatic as "fundamentalist" religions.
How can it be just as dogmatic as "fundamentalist" religions?

There may be more happy "Christians" than "happy atheists" but please bare in mind that the vast majority of people who claim they are "Christian" don't actually practice or believe in that anymore, that's just how they were raised and they don't care to bother to think about whether or not they still believe in it. They just go along with it because there are more important matters in their life than thinking about their religious beliefs or lack there of.
I agree with this. Most Christians aren't "practicing" Christians, however, it does not negate the fact that they are statistically happier whether or not they practice ritually. (And I would further argue, that practicing Christians are happier than non-practicing Christians.)
Do you have any studies that show that practicing (or even non-practicing) Christians are happier than non-practicing Christians and people of other religions and/or atheism/agnosticism?

To be fair, anyone who believes that Jesus Christ physically rose from the grave and ascended into heaven does need to have their head examined. And they are stone aged, especially the Muslims.
Were you there? Can you prove otherwise? Offer me an alternative explanation for his missing body in the tomb.
You mean aside from the fact that it's not humanly possible?

^

[Vogue_Dirge]

[PracticalAl]

The entire point of intelligent design was to try and make it seem like creationism could be seen as science, yet it was universal cockblocked when It's supporters tried to make it be taught in schools and the entire scientific community rejected it.
(This is another whole discussion, and I don't want to start too many topics at once.) I will say that Creationism fits perfectly well into the realm of science. Just have a peek around http://creation.com/ And as for the "entire" scientific community rejecting it, proof and citations please? Creation.com is composed entirely of physicists, biologists with PhD's, so already your statement is false.

No I don't' know the answers, and no one does, but a 2000+ year old book isn't going to tell you the answers. The Bible can't answer anything, because the Bible doesn't ask any questions.
I disagree, I know the answers. Are you going to tell me that I don't? Are you omnipotent? .. (And the Bible doesn't answer anything nor asks any questions? Have you ever.. uh.. read the Bible?) Give me a question, and I can answer it with the Bible.

You can't really use the Bible as an example of the existence of a god. That's just using a book to say that the same book is right, without any factual grounds for that statement.

Why can't I? The Bible is the sole foundation for Christianity, take away the Bible and you are stacking the cards in your favor. It would be like me asking you to disprove God using nothing but the Bible. Not fair, is it? Besides, it's not the book itself, it's the content INSIDE the book. How about just the staggering circumstance of the Bible's creation, before even getting to the contents inside, for instance:

Consider the fact that the Bible is comprised of 66 Books written over a period of about 1,500 years by over 40 authors from all walks of life, with different kinds of personalities, and in all sorts of situations. It was written in three languages on three continents, and it covers hundreds of controversial subjects. Yet, it fits together into one cohesive story with an appropriate beginning, a logical ending, a central character, and a consistent theme.

The Bible just doesn't say "God exists, the end". There are multiple cases of witness testimony, science, as well as fulfilled prophecy:

Let's take a look at the subject of prophecy and mathematics, because the validity of this type of evidence is very significant. One can estimate the probability of the chance fulfillment of any specific prophecy by determining the number of alternative ways in which the given circumstances might have combined. For example, Jacob’s prophecy that Judah would be the forefather of the Messiah (GEN 49:10) would have a probability of one out of twelve, since there were twelve tribes from which Messiah might have come.

Micah’s predication that Christ would be born in Bethlehem (MIC 5:2) would have a probability of one out of about one hundred, on the assumption that there were about one hundred towns and villages in Judah where He might have been born. The combined probability that both events could have occurred by chance would be 1/12 multiplied by 1/100 which is 1/1200. This type of calculation can be extended indefinitely, multiplying individual probabilities together to get the combined probability of all the prophecies being fulfilled by chance by the same individual.

One Let’s consider the possibility of one individual fulfilling only 20 of the over 300 prophecies concerning the Lord Jesus Christ at His First Coming. The combined probability is one chance in ten to the 175th power. That number could be written as the number 1 followed by 175 zeros which would look something like this: 10,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000, 000,000,000.

To illustrate the magnitude of such a number, imagine a universe that is 5 million billion trillion light-years in radius, all solidly packed with microscopic particles, each of which is only one fourth of a millionth of a billionth of an inch in diameter. The total number of particles turns out to be 10 followed by 175 zeroes. Now imagine that one particle is painted red, while all the others are painted white. Stir them up well with a giant paddle and then send a blind man into the great sea of particles to pick just one. The chance that he would select the red particle is the same as the probability that those twenty prophecies could have all been fulfilled, by pure chance, in the life of one individual. Incredibly, remember that this calculation is based on only 20 of the 300 Messianic prophecies, not to mention all the other biblical prophecies!

I don't have specific verses, but it's well known for these things: Racism / Slavery: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery Homosexuality: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bib..._homosexuality Sexism: http://members.shaw.ca/tfrisen/Bbl/Sexism/Sexism.html & Deuteronomy 25-11 / 25-12 Anti-Semetism: http://en.wikipedia.or /wiki/Christi...d_antisemitism
Ah, and Wikipedia rears it's ugly head. (Wikipedia is heavily biased against Christianity.) The Bible makes no hateful statements towards any of the criteria you listed, and if you are willing to prove me wrong, please list specific chapter/verse. Citing a dictionary website that anyone can edit is not going to cut it. I will gladly explain any verse you submit to me.

Do you have any studies that show that practicing (or even non-practicing) Christians are happier than non-practicing Christians and people of other religions and/or atheism/agnosticism?
Not at the moment, but I can certainly find some. I'll try to have some ready by the time you reply next.

You mean aside from the fact that it's not humanly possible?
Again, offer me an explanation for His missing body then.

EDIT: Glad you are enjoying this Vogue. Got to clear up those misconceptions about Christianity, right? ;)

[Ununoctium]

A bit off-topic, but:

and

[PracticalAl]

Ununoctium, it's been fun but I can see that you are straying a bit. It seems to me that your mind is already made up in this area. (Despite admitting that you are "open" as an agnostic.) The speaker in those Youtube videos appears to be your "go-to guy", to which I've already demonstrated he has made not one compelling argument. He makes statements to which he backs up with virtually nothing. Is this who you rest your faith in? Of course, it is your free will choice to believe who and what you like. If you'd like to continue the conversation further, PM me and I will gladly continue. But for now, I'm out. I've been on the computer since 9am and have quite the headache. ^^'..

[Ununoctium]

Sorry for not really replying, I never did care for discussing religion, it just holds zero interest for me.

[Vogue_Dirge]

Not really clearing up anything. Everything you said is what I expect a Christian to say. And everything that Unu said is what I would expect an atheist to say. Arguing between religious people and atheists is the most fun to watch.

[Mr. Spencer]

I was masturbating throughout the entire show. I found it immensely gratifying.

Thank you.

[PracticalAl]

Sorry for not really replying, I never did care for discussing religion, it just holds zero interest for me.

It's okay, I'm used to such a reaction. Questions get tough, skeptics start to falter.. I've yet been able to be stumped by any questioner, isn't that strange? It's like the Bible is Holy and infallible or something? ;)..

Well, I hope the Bible holds some interest for you someday. As an agnostic you should be open to these things, yes? Though your attitude throughout our discussion seemed pretty atheistic to me. You may want to rethink how you approach these sort of questions. May I also suggest never referring to anothers beliefs as "stone-aged", you might be surprised one day to find out some of your beliefs aren't so air-tight..

Your replies demonstrated a severe lack of basic Biblical knowledge. I suggest if you ever want to really learn the Bible, stop watching the YouTube schmuck who knows absolutely jackshit, and find yourself a pastor who has studied his whole life, such as the one on my signature.

Not really clearing up anything. Everything you said is what I expect a Christian to say. And everything that Unu said is what I would expect an atheist to say. Arguing between religious people and atheists is the most fun to watch.

Oh, really? So you've seen that mathematical example of a prophecies before? Isn't it mind-blowing? It's too bad Unu seceded, I was really looking forward to his attempt to answer the missing body in the tomb question! Well, I hope it's not just fun but educational as well.

[Ununoctium]

I was masturbating throughout the entire show. I found it immensely gratifying.

Thank you.

You're most definitely welcome...