"Occupy Wall Street" Riots

[Ununoctium]

You're so hyped on the boogyman that socialist movement supposedly has.

But Obama is setting up death panels!

Spoiler:

show spoiler

loljk

[Wrathborne]

But the rich can afford to pay more.

Yeah but you cant have 97% of the country depends on the 3% in general. I think they seriously need to start pushing down on Hollywood studios too, as they fucking print money there.

[Ununoctium]

I think we should go back to the gold standard.

[Grem]

Introduce a little Anarchy and everything becomes...Chaos.

lol Funny. But this has nothing to do with anarchy. I should have said "protests" instead of "riots". This is just about justice. A word some people probably forgot the meaning.

Do we still want some powerful assholes to fuck us in the ass like we enjoy it?

On a side note, quite honestly I really hate greedy people. I think they are the trash of humanity. Which explains my sympathy towards these protesters. I admit.

[Inferno04]

Do we still want some powerful assholes to fuck us in the ass like we enjoy it?

On a side note, quite honestly I really hate greedy people. I think they are the trash of humanity. Which explains my sympathy towards these protesters. I admit.

There have always been those in power towering over those with less.
There's something you forget. It isn't American culture, or evil of coorperations. This is human nature. Greed and quest for power are practically encoded into our DNA. Trash of humanity? It's in ALL of us. Hell, I'm a greedy person. I don't want to share my personally acquired wealth with anybody unless /I/ choose to.

[Grem]

This is too easy to say that it is in our nature and that we can't do anything about it.

We aspire to something else. I view life as a challenge to get better time after time by virtue. If we only listen to our primary instincts, there can be only destruction and desperation.

Also, I mean REAL greedy person. Those who could sell their parents and wouldn't give a damn. Of course, everyone is a little bit selfish, but some are wayyyyy too much.

[Inferno04]

This is too easy to say that it is in our nature and that we can't do anything about it.

We aspire to something else. I view life as a challenge to get better time after time by virtue. If we only listen to our primary instincts, there can be only destruction and desperation.

Also, I mean REAL greedy person. Those who could sell their parents and wouldn't give a damn. Of course, everyone is a little bit selfish, but some are wayyyyy too much.

Nice point as well. *Nod* Should we give into insticts or try to rise above them? A personal choice everyone has I suppose.

[TheSelfishGene]

I've read this thread, and a bit about this movement in general. On Friday in the city I live in there was a peaceful sit-in which was broken up by police in riot gear. People were injured on both sides, and each is blaming the other. Depending on which media you read depends on what you hear.

Here in Australia the gap between the weathly and the not-wealthy (but not necessarily poor) isn't as wide, or stark as the gap in the USA. I heard a stat (on left radio) which was something like the top 400 individuals in the USA own 60% of the wealth. I might have to listen back to the recording if need be. At the same time, I don't think the gap is that far from what's in the USA either.

But when speculation and investment can cause the collapse of a financial system which ripples around the globe like it did in 2008, I can see why people are upset. When their taxes are used to bail out these negligent cowboys with zero personal consequence, I can see why they are upset. When corporations pay little to no tax and keep everything for themselves, I can see why people are upset. And I think the worst thing that those in power can do is ignore this and pretend it's business as usual.

However let's say a 40 year old man needs to have a lung transplant because he had a five-pack-a-day habit. The government shouldn't support that individual. However the local community can support him, his neighbors, the churches/mosques/synagogues, his fellow citizens in the local area, charity organizations, etc. can help him to pay for the surgery.

Why are you happy for the community to support this man, but NOT through taxation? I fail to see a difference. I actually see the OWS movement as primarily a taxation/wealth distribution problem.

Well of course they don't want to, nobody wants to pay taxes, or at least most people don't. But many of them do give back through charity organization, for instance Bill Gates has donated billions of dollars to aid the poor and people without health insurance. Also, they give back by giving people jobs, when was the last time a poor person gave you a job?

And his contemporary Steve Jobs appears to have taken it all to the grave (figuratively speaking). You can't rely on this. And Bill and Melinda Gate's humanitarian work is focused on the developing world, not the USA. Bad example.

I can't speak for everywhere in the US, but in my area there are a lot of job opportunities. Hell the company I work for just opened a new store and has dozens of open positions.

But to touch on a point that Vogue made earlier too, it's very hard to get a good job even with good qualifications. I'm an honours graduate from the number 1 university in the country. It took me 18 months after graduating to find a job in my field. Now I work for that very same uni. In the mean time I worked in a warehouse stacking pallets of liquor. I'd argue that it's in everybody's interest for trained people to work in trained roles. In that the return on the investment in education is only achieved when people are using their skills. This is going to sound horribly snobbish, but I don't think trained people like me should be working in stores. It's a waste of everybodies time and skills. Especially in research and development (which is what I work in).
That said - if I lost my job I would go back to working in a warehouse in a heartbeat. But when I was working in a warehouse in Australia I was earning approximately $30 USD an hour (yes really). I acutally earn slightly less now per hour as a low level scientist. In Australia with things like socialised healthcare, and strong union movements people can make quite comfortable livings in lower level jobs. And these things rely on people paying their taxes to help the less fortunate. Which links back to the whole Wall Street thing...

[Darkmoon]

I do think the rich can pay more than the poor. Let's be fair here - 10% of the guy who works on the street corner selling newspaper's income is vital to him. It could mean not making rent or a house payment. 10% of the guy making billions from a trust fund is not buying himself a new yacht to sail off to Monaco in. Simply put, you could tax he rich guy 99% of his income and he could still maintain a reasonable standard of living. Which isn't to say that you should, that's just silly. But while taxing the rich isn't going to get anyone of of debt, it can help ease things up for the less well off - and government policies should always have at some focus on what's best for the majority of the country, rather than the majority of the rich people and those paying for there campaign. It's not how it actually works, of course, but it should.

Also, the idea that if certain sick people aren't helped by the government there local community will help them is...not likely. History certainly doesn't show that. If you can't pay and can't find a doctor willing to do you a favour, you die. It's that simple. The NHS in Britain isn't perfect, and needs an overhaul, but I can lay my hand on my heart and say I'd be dead if we had the same system as America. And that still horrifies me - the idea that only those with the cash should get medical treatment boggles my mind.

[Ununoctium]

lol Funny. But this has nothing to do with anarchy. I should have said "protests" instead of "riots". This is just about justice. A word some people probably forgot the meaning.

Do we still want some powerful assholes to fuck us in the ass like we enjoy it?

On a side note, quite honestly I really hate greedy people. I think they are the trash of humanity. Which explains my sympathy towards these protesters. I admit.

"Justice?" How is this in any way about justice? Well to be fair the riots aren't about ANYTHING, just a bunch of stoners who don't want to get a job. But how could that in any way be construed as "justice"?

[Ununoctium]

I do think the rich can pay more than the poor. Let's be fair here - 10% of the guy who works on the street corner selling newspaper's income is vital to him. It could mean not making rent or a house payment. 10% of the guy making billions from a trust fund is not buying himself a new yacht to sail off to Monaco in. Simply put, you could tax he rich guy 99% of his income and he could still maintain a reasonable standard of living. Which isn't to say that you should, that's just silly. But while taxing the rich isn't going to get anyone of of debt, it can help ease things up for the less well off - and government policies should always have at some focus on what's best for the majority of the country, rather than the majority of the rich people and those paying for there campaign. It's not how it actually works, of course, but it should.

Also, the idea that if certain sick people aren't helped by the government there local community will help them is...not likely. History certainly doesn't show that. If you can't pay and can't find a doctor willing to do you a favour, you die. It's that simple. The NHS in Britain isn't perfect, and needs an overhaul, but I can lay my hand on my heart and say I'd be dead if we had the same system as America. And that still horrifies me - the idea that only those with the cash should get medical treatment boggles my mind.

There seems to be a misconception about health care in America. You seem to think that everyone in the top 3% is refused treatment and dies. But hospitals and medical facilities are required to treat every patient that walks through the door, even illegal immigrants. Also, for the bottom 2% that can't afford an organ transplant, they get put on a UNOS list, which is provided not by government handouts but by non-profit NGOs, and they will still receive their organ transplant. Also uninsured/unemployed individuals still get nominal insurance through Medicare and Medicaid, but that's a completely different subject.

The idea that people should have zero personal responsibility and that Big Brother should give everyone everything is a relatively new concept. This is not what the Founding Fathers wanted for America, that may be fine for the European Union, North Korea, and Venezuela, but it's not acceptable for America. People need to stop asking for government handouts and instead be asking these "rich" people who they wish to become more than anything for a job.

These "rich" people earned their way up there, people like Benjamin Franklin, Albert Einstein, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Henry Ford, etc. they revolutionized the entire planet with their inventions, and now you want to punish these people for helping all of humanity with their inventions and discoveries? Now of course some of them were born into it and haven't done a damn thing in their life other than be the son of a successful businessman. But who are we to tell these great innovators that they can't provide the best possible future they can for their child? Wouldn't you want to provide the best opportunity for your child? And some of them have earned that money through dubious means, such as Al Capone, and those people do need to be taken down. And if you wanted to seize all of Al Capone's assets and put it all into taxes, I would have no problem with that.

Here in Australia the gap between the weathly and the not-wealthy (but not necessarily poor) isn't as wide, or stark as the gap in the USA. I heard a stat (on left radio) which was something like the top 400 individuals in the USA own 60% of the wealth. I might have to listen back to the recording if need be. At the same time, I don't think the gap is that far from what's in the USA either.

I wouldn't put too much faith in anything a left-wing radio show says. But do you have a source for that?

But when speculation and investment can cause the collapse of a financial system which ripples around the globe like it did in 2008, I can see why people are upset. When their taxes are used to bail out these negligent cowboys with zero personal consequence, I can see why they are upset. When corporations pay little to no tax and keep everything for themselves, I can see why people are upset. And I think the worst thing that those in power can do is ignore this and pretend it's business as usual.

I agree, the Obama's "too big to fail" bailouts were a disaster and the corporate tax system needs to be changed. We need to abandon big government Keynesian economics in favor of the Austrian School.

Why are you happy for the community to support this man, but NOT through taxation? I fail to see a difference. I actually see the OWS movement as primarily a taxation/wealth distribution problem.

If by "taxation" you mean big government and socialism, then hell no. The government should interfere in a law abiding individuals life as little as possible.

And his contemporary Steve Jobs appears to have taken it all to the grave (figuratively speaking). You can't rely on this. And Bill and Melinda Gate's humanitarian work is focused on the developing world, not the USA. Bad example.

I haven't been keeping up on Steve Job's death, so would you mind elaborating? And yes, I know that Bill and Melinda Gate's humanitarian work is focused on third world countries, but I was just using that as an example.

But to touch on a point that Vogue made earlier too, it's very hard to get a good job even with good qualifications. I'm an honours graduate from the number 1 university in the country. It took me 18 months after graduating to find a job in my field. Now I work for that very same uni. In the mean time I worked in a warehouse stacking pallets of liquor. I'd argue that it's in everybody's interest for trained people to work in trained roles. In that the return on the investment in education is only achieved when people are using their skills. This is going to sound horribly snobbish, but I don't think trained people like me should be working in stores. It's a waste of everybodies time and skills. Especially in research and development (which is what I work in).
That said - if I lost my job I would go back to working in a warehouse in a heartbeat. But when I was working in a warehouse in Australia I was earning approximately $30 USD an hour (yes really). I acutally earn slightly less now per hour as a low level scientist. In Australia with things like socialised healthcare, and strong union movements people can make quite comfortable livings in lower level jobs. And these things rely on people paying their taxes to help the less fortunate. Which links back to the whole Wall Street thing...

All of those stoner college kids want the jobs you were talking about, they want jobs that will earn them millions of dollars a year, but those jobs don't exist. Which is why they need to work jobs for unskilled laborers, while actively trying to get the position they want. And the reason those jobs don't exist are for a number of reasons, it has to do with the economy and how there are simply too many of these stoner college kids who want the same job, so there's fierce competition. Also I wouldn't complain about earning $30 USD an hour, since that's more money than most skilled professionals make and you're working a job for unskilled laborers. Of course in a socialist country like yours, about 90% of your income goes to taxes.

[Darkmoon]

Please try to avoid double posting - I'll have to give you an Infraction if you continue.

There seems to be a misconception about health care in America. You seem to think that everyone in the top 3% is refused treatment and dies. But hospitals and medical facilities are required to treat every patient that walks through the door, even illegal immigrants. Also, for the bottom 2% that can't afford an organ transplant, they get put on a UNOS list, which is provided not by government handouts but by non-profit NGOs, and they will still receive their organ transplant. Also uninsured/unemployed individuals still get nominal insurance through Medicare and Medicaid, but that's a completely different subject.

The idea that people should have zero personal responsibility and that Big Brother should give everyone everything is a relatively new concept. This is not what the Founding Fathers wanted for America, that may be fine for the European Union, North Korea, and Venezuela, but it's not acceptable for America. People need to stop asking for government handouts and instead be asking these "rich" people who they wish to become more than anything for a job.

These "rich" people earned their way up there, people like Benjamin Franklin, Albert Einstein, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Henry Ford, etc. they revolutionized the entire planet with their inventions, and now you want to punish these people for helping all of humanity with their inventions and discoveries? Now of course some of them were born into it and haven't done a damn thing in their life other than be the son of a successful businessman. But who are we to tell these great innovators that they can't provide the best possible future they can for their child? Wouldn't you want to provide the best opportunity for your child? And some of them have earned that money through dubious means, such as Al Capone, and those people do need to be taken down. And if you wanted to seize all of Al Capone's assets and put it all into taxes, I would have no problem with that.

There's a big difference between handouts and something people pay for via taxes. We pay for our healthcare via our taxes, and everyone gets the exact same standard of mis-treatment and abuse. But if your teeth are bad and you can find and NHS dentist, you get them fixed. Your get medication for life threatening conditions either free or for a minimal cost. There is simply never a case of, say, having to choose between paying the rent and paying for some you need medically.

And as I understand it, Medicaid is very limited...I've heard horror stories of people receiving $1000 bills for there daughter after she died on the way to hospital after being gang raped, stuff like that. That it's very, very limited and only for emergencies, and that the gap between qualifying for medicaid and being able to afford insurance is quite large..

I have a different view, honestly...who are we to tell people living on the poverty line that the guy driving a different Ferarri every day can't possibly help out more than he does? I'm not saying that these people should be giving up even a majority of there income. But they can afford to pay a higher percentage.

[Ununoctium]

Please try to avoid double posting - I'll have to give you an Infraction if you continue.



There's a big difference between handouts and something people pay for via taxes. We pay for our healthcare via our taxes, and everyone gets the exact same standard of mis-treatment and abuse. But if your teeth are bad and you can find and NHS dentist, you get them fixed. Your get medication for life threatening conditions either free or for a minimal cost. There is simply never a case of, say, having to choose between paying the rent and paying for some you need medically.

And as I understand it, Medicaid is very limited...I've heard horror stories of people receiving $1000 bills for there daughter after she died on the way to hospital after being gang raped, stuff like that. That it's very, very limited and only for emergencies, and that the gap between qualifying for medicaid and being able to afford insurance is quite large..

I have a different view, honestly...who are we to tell people living on the poverty line that the guy driving a different Ferarri every day can't possibly help out more than he does? I'm not saying that these people should be giving up even a majority of there income. But they can afford to pay a higher percentage.

People who receive the handouts aren't the good old hard-working tax-paying Americans we all know and love, they're the leeches on the system. Just like the people who still receive "temporary" unemployment checks that people still get 4+ years after losing their job. And I wouldn't take any "horror stories" about the American system seriously, just as I wouldn't take the "horror stories" I've heard of the British NHS seriously. When the government gives out everything as a hand-out, it just rewards idleness and destroys the entire concept of personal responsibility and wants to ruin the American dream.

[Darkmoon]

I take said stories seriously because they come from two sources, one I trust less and one I trust more. The lesser one is the guy who writes Something Positive, and used to work for Medicaid billing. The second source is my wife, whose family spent half a year on Medicaid when her father lost a job.

And yeah, the NHS has it's share of fuck ups. A friend of mine has a hip that looks like it's full of broken glass because they screwed up on it. I just think it's better than the American system - be you a Prime Minister or a homeless guy off the street you get the same care, same medications and same tratments without concern over how full your wallet is.

[TheSelfishGene]

I wouldn't put too much faith in anything a left-wing radio show says. But do you have a source for that?

I'll try and find the exact figure later today, and see if there's a source for it

If by "taxation" you mean big government and socialism, then hell no. The government should interfere in a law abiding individuals life as little as possible.

I agree with you here in principle. But socialised medical assistance is one aspect of life I'm happy for the government to run. Most other things I agree, and government should fuck right off

I haven't been keeping up on Steve Job's death, so would you mind elaborating? And yes, I know that Bill and Melinda Gate's humanitarian work is focused on third world countries, but I was just using that as an example.
My understanding is that he left his personal wealth to his family, which is his perogative and I'm fine with it, but you can't expect well of people like him to give anything back to society, like you said (and gave Bill Gates as an example)

All of those stoner college kids want the jobs you were talking about, they want jobs that will earn them millions of dollars a year, but those jobs don't exist. Which is why they need to work jobs for unskilled laborers, while actively trying to get the position they want. And the reason those jobs don't exist are for a number of reasons, it has to do with the economy and how there are simply too many of these stoner college kids who want the same job, so there's fierce competition. Also I wouldn't complain about earning $30 USD an hour, since that's more money than most skilled professionals make and you're working a job for unskilled laborers. Of course in a socialist country like yours, about 90% of your income goes to taxes.

1) I wouldn't dismiss them as 'stoner college kids'. 2) I don't think they want millions of dollars a year. I think they want the distribution of wealth to be a bit fairer for all. 3) You said the reason these jobs don't exist for them is because of the economy. I think they are right to be upset about this, because who is controlling the economy and made it that way in the first place? That's directly related to the competitiveness for jobs too. 4) Here $30/hr is not a lot more than skilled professionals make. And 5) 90% of my income doesn't go to taxes. If this is what you call a socialist country, then call me a socialist; I really could care less

To me it sounds like you've bought the American Dream hook line and sinker. That America is doing everything right and is the greatest place on Earth. That anyone from any background can achieve anything. While I think America is a great country, I think there's always things that can be improved, and people should always be demanding that. And I think that's what these OWS protesters are doing - demanding that the rich pay more taxes and that people who ruined the economy be accountable for the better of everyone. If everyone's happy with their lot and not complaining then of course they will be exploited.

.