Capcom asking the fans about an REmake 2

[Deathlygasm]

I do agree now that this is all mind fucking! Plus what kind of self destruct system blows up a treatment facility AND the training facility specifically (which are pretty far apart) but leaves Birkins lab untouched? Must be a pretty handy self destruct system if you ask me! I like the explanation of "It was thrown in last minuet for fan service and noone thought anything about it". If you really want you can just pretend Rebecca never went there or they duplicated just the entrances.

Edit: Also like someone else said, I still to this day don't understand why Rebecca didn't want to search the rest of Birkins lab. I myself would wanna know why a seemingly abandoned factory is appearing to lead to a high-tech lab. Now lets say this is a different place, what would have been beyond the doors then?

[RaccoonSurvivor]

The lab in Zero IS the same lab as in RE2. Obviously since Zero was made after RE2 (years later) there were bound to be added extras and areas - which could not be altered in RE2 since it was already released.
The lab in Zero is run down and in a state of decay - clearly Umbrella took it over and revamped it - which is why its clean and new in RE2.

Obviously, they threw it in there without really thinking. Why else would EVERY camera angle match RE2 exactly?
I did a side by side comparison ages ago using screenshots from both games.. every tiny detail is the same.
The rooms even have the exact same number of hardhats in the saveroom, in the exact same order as in RE2...
Not to mention the lettering on the walls being in the exact same spot.. the only thing that was missing was the tram itself on the turntable.

I guess we'll never know, but this happens all the time. Like the RPD in RE3 not linking correctly with RE2 in terms of broken windows and the boarded up areas.. Like - where did all those blockades in the RPD front yard go?? We all know Jill (RE3) and the Outbreak levels take place before RE2 .. and Capcom messed up there too.

The only reason for the magic elevator is for gameplay - since Zero scrapped ItemBoxes, the player had to have a way back to the Training Facility for weapons, ammo and maybe even key items too.. Otherwise, the game would be broken!

Not to mention that there are 2 seperate cable cars (one in Zero and another at the opposite end of the factory in RE2) and we have no idea how far those travelled...

[Sly]

You'll have to explain how the sheds can move then. The turn table can move, but not the whole area around it. The hangar we go through in every game is in the same position every time, so I wonder how they could be different.

The lab is a major fuck up, because its placement does not fit the story nor the geography of the game, and generally does not make sense at all within the context of the game. You would be hard pressed to find other, bigger issues in the series. But please, give me one or two.

[TheBatMan]

I never relied on the magic elevator in this debate, not once. Neither did I rely on the "shiny versus abandoned" look of the areas.
You're supposing that Zero's area is a massive industrial complex hiding a lab, whereas I'm trying to explain to you that I suggest it be actually just the upper part of the water treatment facility. Why would they try to hide it anyway ?
1- The whole point of "infiltration" is to bypass security, or else it's called "a stroll in the park", which is what the STARS did. How do you know there was no security when Hunk attacked Birkin anyway ? We don't see anything.
2- The Hunters were brought by the first Investigation Team. They were planning to reuse the place, so they began to fill it with their own stuff, including Hunters.
The Proto-Tyrant was uncontrollable, Birkin letting it loose in his own lab is preposterous, even for a nutjob like him. The place was not locked down at all : when Rebecca tries to open doors, you don't get "It's tightly shut", no no, she just says "There's no need to search this area". It's, like, the most important location ever for the STARS investigation, but they just don't care ? Yeah, sure.
3- Well, Rebecca is not an NPC, is she ?
4- The whole point of a self destruct system is to destroy. Completely. As in, leave no trace behind. So yeah the place went down, no doubt about it.
5- He doesn't have to have prior knowledge of Birkin's lab : he's right under his feet ! There are tons of scientists working like bees above his head and you suggest he didn't even bother to pay a visit to his upper floor neighbours ?
6- Uh... I'm afraid you didn't answer the question at all.
7- Irons blocked the STARS investigation, but they carried it on anyway, undercover, and Jill did indeed stay in Raccoon City to find Birkin's lab. If Rebecca had already been there, they wouldn't need to look hard for it, because she already knew where it was.
So, if the bloodstains and markings are matching, then it's a proof. But the crap ton of things that do not match, like the numbers above the hangars or the addition of a hangar on the opposite side, which was not there in RE2, that doesn't prove anything ? How convenient.

Look, I'm not stupid, I know they are supposed to be the same lab. The save room alone is telling : the 4 helmets are exactly in the same position and the 1st aid spray is in the same broken closet, everything in the room is exactly like in RE2 (which is really surprising because people are supposed to work here, but oh well). However, this is a major fuck up storywise and it does not make sense at all for a billion reasons, no matter how many poor excuses you can find. So the only way to not boggle my mind is to tell myself that they are not the same places. Fortunately for me, it is never explicitly stated, and the fact that it was a poorly thought last minute addition actually helps me to deal with this.
Still, I would really like to know the developers' thoughts about all of this. Would they be like "yeah, we fucked up, sorry about that" or "believe me I can explain !" ?

1. It's a massive industrial complex hiding a lab because that is what it is in Bio2 because it's the same place, just like it's the same place in Outbreak. The water treatment plant isn't in the middle of the forest. It begins at the city limits and stretches out underground beneath the forest. Why would a water treatment lab in the middle of the forest have a huge turntable and subterranean complex with 'Umbrella Laboratory' plastered all over it? Why would a water treatment plant need train tracks?

2. How do you know what Enrico did exactly? We don't know if he ran into anyone or not. He may easily have slipped past security on a upper level, we just don't know. And how do you know there was no security at the lab at all? Rebecca only visited a tiny portion.

3. That's funny. Why on earth would the investigation team bring a pack of Hunters with them? They were there to survey the place to see if it was viable to potentially reopen the facility as part of the Reclamation Project, not fill it full of bio-weapons to let loose. Someone let the Tyrant loose, as it was secure when you reach the marshalling yard. It seems mightily convenient that it suddenly breaks free just as two STARS members manage to get inside a top-secret lab.

4. Is it? Tell that to Rockfort Island or Alex Wesker's tower. I doubt Umbrella would have the capacity to destroy an actual dam and even if they did would have a problem hiding that one from the general public.

5. It doesn't matter it's right under his feet. If he's not familiar with it, he's not familiar with it. The Queen Leech inherited all of Marcus' memories prior to his death. Why would he have any knowledge of a facility that didn't exist when he was around. His target was the mansion and the training facility.

6. You mean like you haven't answered a single one at all?

7. Again, who says she didn't know where it was? But she had to wait until Irons was off her back and Umbrella were distracted before she could get anywhere near it.

8. The number on the hangar doesn't match because it's a different hangar. Look on the marshalling yard map textures in RE0, RE2 and RE3 show that there are different sheds surrounding the turn table. The one in Outbreak is different too.

It's not surprising there are 4 helmets because it's meant to be an abandoned factory. That is the cover that hides the entrance to the lab. It is an abandoned factory in the middle of the industrial zone. No one works there so nothing would ever move, that's the point.

The lab is not a major fuck up at all, not in the slightest when compared to other issues the series raises. It's a minor oversight because Capcom simply threw in a bit of fan service without really thinking about it. I'm sorry my 'poor reasons' don't make sense but hey, at least I have reasons and I'm not just making stuff up to justify a level placement issue I don't like. If you know its the same lab but just don't like the issue to the point of creating an entirely new one in your head, then your not likely to find any hard evidence to prove they are different are you?

[Sly]

I never relied on the magic elevator in this debate, not once. Neither did I rely on the "shiny versus abandoned" look of the areas.
You're supposing that Zero's area is a massive industrial complex hiding a lab, whereas I'm trying to explain to you that I suggest it be actually just the upper part of the water treatment facility. Why would they try to hide it anyway ?
1- The whole point of "infiltration" is to bypass security, or else it's called "a stroll in the park", which is what the STARS did. How do you know there was no security when Hunk attacked Birkin anyway ? We don't see anything.
2- The Hunters were brought by the first Investigation Team. They were planning to reuse the place, so they began to fill it with their own stuff, including Hunters.
The Proto-Tyrant was uncontrollable, Birkin letting it loose in his own lab is preposterous, even for a nutjob like him. The place was not locked down at all : when Rebecca tries to open doors, you don't get "It's tightly shut", no no, she just says "There's no need to search this area". It's, like, the most important location ever for the STARS investigation, but they just don't care ? Yeah, sure.
3- Well, Rebecca is not an NPC, is she ?
4- The whole point of a self destruct system is to destroy. Completely. As in, leave no trace behind. So yeah the place went down, no doubt about it.
5- He doesn't have to have prior knowledge of Birkin's lab : he's right under his feet ! There are tons of scientists working like bees above his head and you suggest he didn't even bother to pay a visit to his upper floor neighbours ?
6- Uh... I'm afraid you didn't answer the question at all.
7- Irons blocked the STARS investigation, but they carried it on anyway, undercover, and Jill did indeed stay in Raccoon City to find Birkin's lab. If Rebecca had already been there, they wouldn't need to look hard for it, because she already knew where it was.
So, if the bloodstains and markings are matching, then it's a proof. But the crap ton of things that do not match, like the numbers above the hangars or the addition of a hangar on the opposite side, which was not there in RE2, that doesn't prove anything ? How convenient.

Look, I'm not stupid, I know they are supposed to be the same lab. The save room alone is telling : the 4 helmets are exactly in the same position and the 1st aid spray is in the same broken closet, everything in the room is exactly like in RE2 (which is really surprising because people are supposed to work here, but oh well). However, this is a major fuck up storywise and it does not make sense at all for a billion reasons, no matter how many poor excuses you can find. So the only way to not boggle my mind is to tell myself that they are not the same places. Fortunately for me, it is never explicitly stated, and the fact that it was a poorly thought last minute addition actually helps me to deal with this.
Still, I would really like to know the developers' thoughts about all of this. Would they be like "yeah, we fucked up, sorry about that" or "believe me I can explain !" ?

[Zombie_X]

Regarding the prototype Tyrant, I had always thought it was supposed to be disposed of, but survived. Or even it wasn't yet disposed of. I never assumed it would be released to take care of Enrico as it could possibly escape into the forest and cause further spread of the virus. I don't Wesker or Birkin would take a risk that big just ensure Enrico would be dealt with.

And the bit about the lab, I thought it was confirmed to be a whole separate abandoned lab. If it were the one from RE2, I doubt it would be run down, nor would anyone be able to waltz in under all the guards noses. I assumed it was a decommissioned facility left to decay. But if it was abandoned, I doubt Umbrella would leave such a large facility sitting there intact. Surely they would of engaged the self destruct to wipe out all traces of the lab.

The lab is part of the plot and is not just there for fan service. If it was the lab from RE2 then all Rebecca would've had to do was go down the hatch in the control room and follow the tram back to the sewers, then back to the RPD.

[TheBatMan]

What does Kamiya have to do with Zero ? This facility is not mentioned because it's part of the water treatment plant, there's nothing more to it.

The URC is directly connected to the water treatment plant. The fact that Birkin can self destruct the two areas at the same time is proof enough.
I can play this game of rhetorical questions too, but beware : mine are far more embarrassing. Why was there no security at all in Birkin's Lab ? Why were there several Hunters and a Tyrant - a failed, uncontrollable experiment - on the loose ? Why did Albert and William let the STARS stroll around Birkin's super secret lab without even trying to lock the place down ? How could the water treatment plant explode beneath Birkin's lab without damaging it at all ? Why would Marcus hide there without even trying to take control of this lab and destroy Birkin's work ? He was "resurrected" in the water treatment plant, and made its nest there... but never bothered to look upstairs and attacked the Spencer Mansion miles away instead, then he just sat there and slept for two months ? Why would there be a cable car linking Birkin's lab to Marcus' lab, which was abandoned years before Birkin's lab was even built ? Why would Rebecca not tell Jill and Chris about it, while they were frantically looking for it in August ?

Kamiya had nothing to do with Zero, I should clarify. I just meant he was the one who confirmed it was Sugimura's idea to add the Bio2 lab and he is now dead unfortunately.

URC is not connected to the water treatment plant, you are relying on the magic elevator again. The fact Birkin can blow two areas up at the same time means nothing. There were two infestations after all. If they were connected, why would a water treatment plant need a laboratory on top of it with a massive turn table in the middle of the forest? Then of course, Umbrella would need to mow down half the forest and build a massive industrial complex just to keep its entrance a secret... And a massive industrial complex in the middle of the forest? Very inconspicuous.

1. We don't know there wasn't any security. We only visit a tiny portion and most areas are locked down. There was no security present when Hunk infiltrated in Bio2 either.

2. Why are there even Hunters in Resident Evil Zero at all? I bet you can't think of a plausible explanation because there really isn't one. As for the Tyrant, maybe Birkin let it loose in a locked down part of the lab to take care of Enrico, who cares? If you spend your time worrying about various character movements and enemy placements you will drive yourself crazy. Zero could have done without that Tyrant at all. (That reminds me, I'm sure the old Japanese guidebook for Umbrella Chronicles states the T-001 was transferred to Birkin's lab in Raccoon City for destruction - though I would need to double check that to be fair.)

3. NPC powers - see every other game in the series, like ever. Also they probably didn't register him until he was already inside. He'd spent all night making his way back through the woods, how could they track him? Plus it at least offers a reason why the Tyrant was set loose because it is still secure when Rebecca arrives at the marshalling yard.

4. We don't know the extent of the destruction in the water treatment plant. But considering how large it is and that it contains Raccoon Dam, I'd say a good majority survived in tact. I'm not sure how you could destroy such a massive underground facility without bringing everything on the surface down on top of it.

5. Why didn't Marcus just unleash the virus on Raccoon City as a whole? Maybe he was planning to attack Birkin's lab from within, we just don't know. Plus there's also the fact that Marcus died before Birkin's lab was constructed, so he would have no knowledge of the facility or who worked there. He nested in the water treatment plant because that was where he was born, then attacked the training facility and the Spencer mansion because those are the facilities he was familiar with.

6. The cable car linked Marcus' lab to Birkin's because one is in Raccoon Forest, one is not. They are a substantial distance away from each other.

7. She likely did tell them. But Irons blocked any attempt at an investigation by the surviving S.T.A.R.S. It was also likely the very facility Jill stayed behind in the city to investigate after the STARS were disbanded and the others had left.

We could do this all night, but it's pointless unless you can come up with at least one piece of tangible evidence to suggest this is a completely seperate, identical facility other than vague speculation and one elevator that has been all but proved as a simple gameplay device. The bottom line is, you were supposed to get the training facility cable car straight to the water treatment plant - this is confirmed in in-game descriptions and the concept art in the Biohazard Zero Kaitai Shinsho. However, this was changed at the last minute and Sugimura requested the bio2 lab was added. Kamiya confirmed this on twitter. There is no concept art for this lab in any Zero materials because it is taken from Biohazard 2 late into the game's production. Hopefully with the HD remaster, we'll get the chance to ask Kenji Oda but I'd be surprised if he could remember.

So yes, bottom line is the lab's placement provides an issue, that is not in question, but the point is that it is meant to be the same lab, evident right down to the finite details such as bloodstains and the code and floor markings on the walls. But I don't see how this problem is really any different to the police station missing an entire floor in one game and not the other. It's inconsequential.

[VirusPunk]

Realistically an underground secret lab would be very dirty and grimy and look abandoned even if it really isn't. Maybe the interior parts where the researchers worked were meant to look a bit cleaner. Look at how grimy and dirty the Spencer mansion was in REmake compared to the one in RE1? Using the fact that one looks cleaner, the other dirty is ridiculous. Again, these are two different universes; the REmake universe and the classic universe. You're comparing old school methods to something newer in the creation process.

I can keep an open mind about the other arguments though which are valid. Wish we could get an official statement from someone that worked on the games themselves, so we can finally put this mess to a rest as it has carried on long enough already...

[Deathlygasm]

What does Kamiya have to do with Zero ? This facility is not mentioned because it's part of the water treatment plant, there's nothing more to it.

The URC is directly connected to the water treatment plant. The fact that Birkin can self destruct the two areas at the same time is proof enough.
I can play this game of rhetorical questions too, but beware : mine are far more embarrassing. Why was there no security at all in Birkin's Lab ? Why were there several Hunters and a Tyrant - a failed, uncontrollable experiment - on the loose ? Why did Albert and William let the STARS stroll around Birkin's super secret lab without even trying to lock the place down ? How could the water treatment plant explode beneath Birkin's lab without damaging it at all ? Why would Marcus hide there without even trying to take control of this lab and destroy Birkin's work ? He was "resurrected" in the water treatment plant, and made its nest there... but never bothered to look upstairs and attacked the Spencer Mansion miles away instead, then he just sat there and slept for two months ? Why would there be a cable car linking Birkin's lab to Marcus' lab, which was abandoned years before Birkin's lab was even built ? Why would Rebecca not tell Jill and Chris about it, while they were frantically looking for it in August ?

Well shit.... he's making some good points I won't lie.

[Sly]

What does Kamiya have to do with Zero ? This facility is not mentioned because it's part of the water treatment plant, there's nothing more to it.

The URC is directly connected to the water treatment plant. The fact that Birkin can self destruct the two areas at the same time is proof enough.
I can play this game of rhetorical questions too, but beware : mine are far more embarrassing. Why was there no security at all in Birkin's Lab ? Why were there several Hunters and a Tyrant - a failed, uncontrollable experiment - on the loose ? Why did Albert and William let the STARS stroll around Birkin's super secret lab without even trying to lock the place down ? How could the water treatment plant explode beneath Birkin's lab without damaging it at all ? Why would Marcus hide there without even trying to take control of this lab and destroy Birkin's work ? He was "resurrected" in the water treatment plant, and made its nest there... but never bothered to look upstairs and attacked the Spencer Mansion miles away instead, then he just sat there and slept for two months ? Why would there be a cable car linking Birkin's lab to Marcus' lab, which was abandoned years before Birkin's lab was even built ? Why would Rebecca not tell Jill and Chris about it, while they were frantically looking for it in August ?

[Deathlygasm]

Funny to think about that in the Marshalling Yard if Rebecca had just opened up the hatch in the save room she could have made her way back to raccoon city.

[TheBatMan]

"Large industrial zone" says who ?
The duplicate "lab" doesn't even need to be a lab at all. The area we go through could just be the upside part of the water treatment plant, for all we know.
This issue is totally different than the smashed window. No one ever doubted the RPD being the same in every game because it was obvious, not only because of how it looks like, but because of the story stating as such. It's not the case for Zero.

I was like you before, but I changed my mind when I realized it was the most sensible explanation, and one that dealt with all the inconsistencies this area brought. In the end, I do not have definitive proof, but you don't have one either.

Large industrial zone says the massive sprawling area full of power stations, large silos and flashing pylons at the top of the turntable. It is the same issue as the RPD and its blaringly obvious it is the same lab. Even the dried bloodstains are in exactly the same place. Kamiya added it late into development as an afterthought and it was even hinted on the main Japanese site in the build up to the game's release that it was the same place and we'd been here before.

You don't have definitive proof because there isn't any, not a single scrap. On the other hand we have countless maps and supplemental books listing Raccoon City and the Arklay Labs in great detail with every facility detailed and listed - no mention of any massive hole with a hidden facility in Raccoon Forest. No mention by any characters, no mention in any in-game files, no mention anywhere... because it doesn't exist.

Ignore the magic elevator - which we know is a gameplay device, and it fits fine. There is no industrial district in the middle of Raccoon Forest. I don't see why you believe making up a magic second site just to solve a geography inconsistency is the more sensible option as it creates countless other questions. When was it built? By who? For what purpose? Who used it? Why was it abandoned? What was the point of building a new lab and spending billions to create a new lab in Raccoon City in 1991 when there was a perfectly good gargantuan facility left waiting to go in the middle of the forest? Why was Birkin and Wesker there and not monitoring from Raccoon City? Why is there a Tyrant in an abandoned lab?

[Sly]

"Large industrial zone" says who ?
The duplicate "lab" doesn't even need to be a lab at all. The area we go through could just be the upside part of the water treatment plant, for all we know.
This issue is totally different than the smashed window. No one ever doubted the RPD being the same in every game because it was obvious, not only because of how it looks like, but because of the story stating as such. It's not the case for Zero.

I was like you before, but I changed my mind when I realized it was the most sensible explanation, and one that dealt with all the inconsistencies this area brought. In the end, I do not have definitive proof, but you don't have one either.

[Deathlygasm]

Walking distance says who? You get the tram back to the lab and there's no determination how far you travel. The surface of the turntable is in the middle of a massive sprawling industrial estate, not the middle of the forest. The entrance to the lab is within the city boundary and disguised by a vacant factory. That works fine when located in the main industrial district of the city. But now all of a sudden we're expected to believe there is another large industrial zone 8 miles out into the forest just so it can disguise a second identical lab? Ridiculous.

The water treatment plant is a massive place and extends back into the forest from the industrial zone on the city boundary, incorporating Raccoon Dam and is located entirely underground, beneath the city limits and into the forest. Even the freight elevator at the end moves diagonally for an unspecified distance until you reach the top, which could quite easily be several miles back out into the forest. Even then it looks out onto the mansion, not the training facility, and we don't know exactly how close those two facilities are. But given where Bravo Team's crash site is and the distance Rebecca travels on the train, they are probably some distance apart. It's not that unreasonable and far better than simply inventing an identical, duplicate lab that is never once mentioned or referenced and creates numerous story issues of its own.

The RE2 lab section was added late into development to expand the game. Concept art and in-game descriptions show that the training facility was originally supposed to lead right to the water treatment plant. Obviously the planners didn't take into account minor issues this would cause. At the end of the day this issue is no different really than the smashed window in RE3 or the redesign of the RPD in Outbreak that has a different décor in several rooms and no third floor balcony. Or are we going to start debating that Desperate Times takes place in a second, almost identical police station now?

Where was it stated that the RE2 lab section was added in late in developement? That could explain the odd appearance of enrico coming from the lab elevator....

[TheBatMan]

No, it does not. Birkin's lab is within the city limits, Zero's hole in the ground (there may as well be no lab at all in this area for all we know, could be just used for transportation) is at walking distance from the URC, which is lost in the woods 8 miles north of Raccoon City, and directly connected to it.
The Water Treatment Plant blowing up right under Birkin's feet would make absolutely no sense whatsoever as it would necessarily crumble down his own lab.
Aside from their appearance, nothing in the game suggests these two areas are one and the same, which may or may not have been the intention of the background designers, the only way to know would be to ask them.

Walking distance says who? You get the tram back to the lab and there's no determination how far you travel. The surface of the turntable is in the middle of a massive sprawling industrial estate, not the middle of the forest. The entrance to the lab is within the city boundary and disguised by a vacant factory. That works fine when located in the main industrial district of the city. But now all of a sudden we're expected to believe there is another large industrial zone 8 miles out into the forest just so it can disguise a second identical lab? Ridiculous.

The water treatment plant is a massive place and extends back into the forest from the industrial zone on the city boundary, incorporating Raccoon Dam and is located entirely underground, beneath the city limits and into the forest. Even the freight elevator at the end moves diagonally for an unspecified distance until you reach the top, which could quite easily be several miles back out into the forest. Even then it looks out onto the mansion, not the training facility, and we don't know exactly how close those two facilities are. But given where Bravo Team's crash site is and the distance Rebecca travels on the train, they are probably some distance apart. It's not that unreasonable and far better than simply inventing an identical, duplicate lab that is never once mentioned or referenced and creates numerous story issues of its own.

The RE2 lab section was added late into development to expand the game. Concept art and in-game descriptions show that the training facility was originally supposed to lead right to the water treatment plant. Obviously the planners didn't take into account minor issues this would cause. At the end of the day this issue is no different really than the smashed window in RE3 or the redesign of the RPD in Outbreak that has a different décor in several rooms and no third floor balcony. Or are we going to start debating that Desperate Times takes place in a second, almost identical police station now?