"Occupy Wall Street" Riots

[Ununoctium]

I take said stories seriously because they come from two sources, one I trust less and one I trust more. The lesser one is the guy who writes Something Positive, and used to work for Medicaid billing. The second source is my wife, whose family spent half a year on Medicaid when her father lost a job.

And yeah, the NHS has it's share of fuck ups. A friend of mine has a hip that looks like it's full of broken glass because they screwed up on it. I just think it's better than the American system - be you a Prime Minister or a homeless guy off the street you get the same care, same medications and same tratments without concern over how full your wallet is.

So everyone should get substandard treatment and they shouldn't have the right to choose their own healthcare? Also they should be forced to pay into something that is fundamentally flawed and that they have no choice to. And if I'm not mistaken (please correct me if I'm wrong), it is against the law in the UK to even have the choice of a private high quality health care provider, and the government forces you to use their NHS service?

[Darkmoon]

God no, if you want private Health Care then go for it. We have several providers. What I'm saying is that the NHS gives a good level of care to everyone, regardless of wealth. Is it the same care a millionaire can buy? No, of course not. But for everyone whose income doesn't equal seven figures a year it's probably better than they can afford.

And the NHS is probably the equal of most American hospitals, from what my wife tells me.

[Ununoctium]

God no, if you want private Health Care then go for it. We have several providers. What I'm saying is that the NHS gives a good level of care to everyone, regardless of wealth. Is it the same care a millionaire can buy? No, of course not. But for everyone whose income doesn't equal seven figures a year it's probably better than they can afford.

And the NHS is probably the equal of most American hospitals, from what my wife tells me.

And what about all of the people that get offed by the death panels? The ones who were "too old" or "not worth the effort to save" who in America would have still received health care if they could afford it? In socialized medicine there is always a board that decides who gets the transplants and surgeries, and who doesn't. Also the vast majority of Americans are opposed to ObamaCare, even a lot of Democrats are opposed to it. I'd also like to point out that the State of Massachusetts implemented RomneyCare a few years ago, and that bankrupt the state. Also the NHS is a major drain on the government of the UK. It costs more to run the socialized healthcare system than what goes into it through taxes. Socialized medicine also means longer waiting lists and times for treatment, especially when it comes to specialists and organ transplants.

Some sources regarding RomneyCare's failure:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2304782/posts

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703625304575115691871093652.html

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10488

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=10268

[Darkmoon]

There's a board in American hospitals for who gets organs and such, same as here. An old person couldn't buy a new heart, a drunk a new liver or a junkie a new anything because there are others out there who'll get more out of it. It's the same over here...otherwise the American Healthcare system would be like e-bay. 'Who wants to start the bidding on this heart'? I dunno about waiting times - it can certainly take a while here, but on the plus side, it doesn't cost $200 an hour. I love the idea of death panels - they don't actual exist, of course, but the idea is hilarious. My grandfather was in his late eighties when he died, and he'd had several major surgeries in the year before. My mother is given literally thousands of pounds of medication and medical help each year because she has MS and arthritis - she's almost 70. They even give her acupuncture.

But if you don't like the NHS? Fine. Buy yourself some insurance and go that way. As I said, we have several companies offering just the same kinda thing you get in the States. It's something anyone who can afford it can do - that most British people choose not to tells you something.

And we're not bankrupt yet, nor have we gone bankrupt in all the time we've been doing this, so it's obviously possible. We're in no worse shape than America currently, and better off than a lot of other places.

[Ununoctium]

There's a board in American hospitals for who gets organs and such, same as here. An old person couldn't buy a new heart, a drunk a new liver or a junkie a new anything because there are others out there who'll get more out of it. It's the same over here...otherwise the American Healthcare system would be like e-bay. 'Who wants to start the bidding on this heart'? I dunno about waiting times - it can certainly take a while here, but on the plus side, it doesn't cost $200 an hour. I love the idea of death panels - they don't actual exist, of course, but the idea is hilarious. My grandfather was in his late eighties when he died, and he'd had several major surgeries in the year before. My mother is given literally thousands of pounds of medication and medical help each year because she has MS and arthritis - she's almost 70. They even give her acupuncture.

But if you don't like the NHS? Fine. Buy yourself some insurance and go that way. As I said, we have several companies offering just the same kinda thing you get in the States. It's something anyone who can afford it can do - that most British people choose not to tells you something.

And we're not bankrupt yet, nor have we gone bankrupt in all the time we've been doing this, so it's obviously possible. We're in no worse shape than America currently, and better off than a lot of other places.

It's possible short-term, but it's not sustainable. The NHS doesn't have a balanced budget.

[Darkmoon]

The NHS was founded in 1948. Over sixty years and still going.

...of course, by my standard that's pretty short term, but I tend to think in ages.

[Mr. Spencer]

Everything is too commercialised in America, you're like the Ferengi from Star Trek. Always looking for where you can make profit.

[Ununoctium]

Everything is too commercialised in America, you're like the Ferengi from Star Trek. Always looking for where you can make profit.

We also lead the world in every way shape and form. What does that tell you? Democracy and capitalism work. Meanwhile the undemocratic socialist European Union is on it's knees begging to be put down.

[Mr. Spencer]

Wrong.

China leads the world in every shape and form. What products come from America now? There was a time when 'Made in America' meant the automotive industry, yet now it's old women weaving baskets on their porch and selling them at fairs. Pretty much everything is manufactured in China, India and the rest of Asia. Capitalism used to work, but it's past its zenith and is now a dying ideology that will go the way of communism.

[Ununoctium]

Wrong.

China leads the world in every shape and form. What products come from America now? There was a time when 'Made in America' meant the automotive industry, yet now it's old women weaving baskets on their porch and selling them at fairs. Pretty much everything is manufactured in China, India and the rest of Asia. Capitalism used to work, but it's past its zenith and is now a dying ideology that will go the way of communism.

Wait, you just said that communism is successful now and then you also said that capitalism will go the way of communism???

What's the only superpower in the world? That's right, America. We have the highest GDP, the strongest military, the largest cultural reach, the majority of the world's leading corporations, we're the world leader in spaceflight advancements, the US Dollar is the global currency, English is the international language, America is the leader of both NATO and the UN Security Council, America has the third largest population in the world, America is the fourth largest country in the world, America is the only country in the world that has global power projection and military bases across the globe, America has enough nuclear missiles to destroy the entire planet three times over, and America has political power and governance around the world. When America revs up it's fighter jets the whole world watches in awe, when France or China or Russia do, nobody takes notice.

[Mr. Spencer]

When America revs up it's fighter jets the whole world watches in awe, when France or China or Russia do, nobody takes notice.

You are the biggest idiot I have ever encountered on here.

[Darkmoon]

Annnd on that note it's probably time to end this discussion. Since, again, Ununoctium's views are completely unmoveable and people are starting to get tetchy, let's close this one.